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russian armor

A suggestion to fix Shrek Volk blobs

25 Dec 2014, 05:25 AM
#21
avatar of RMMLz

Posts: 1802 | Subs: 1



if you're JP4 is missing alot then your RNG luck sucks like helpinghan's used to be. (ex. his p4 would never penetrate low health t34s and his shrecks would fail to hit a majority of the time.) What do you mean by heavy soviet units? is2? you shouldn't expect the jp4 to penetrate the is2 anyway, its like throwing a pak at a KT and thinking it will penetrate. the is2 has 375 armor and the KT has 400 armor. The JP4 has the same penetration as Jackson.


RNG gods hete me, but about JGPZIV I don't expect it to counter IS2 or anything, I just think that in most play styles it comes a bit late, and considering its fuel cost, low AI capabilities and being turret-less I think it needs some adjustments (like small fuel reduction).

On the other hand, as far as I know it has the smallest target size and it scales kinda well late game.

PS: This might be considered off-topic, but this OKW threads and stupid blobbing will stop only if there are viable AT tactics for the faction and their infantry is adjusted.
25 Dec 2014, 10:37 AM
#22
avatar of BabaRoga

Posts: 829

I think people are blowing effectiveness of Volk shrecks way out of proportion.

Cons + Penals are quite effective vs OKW. Volks do very little damage to shermans/t34's with frontal shots and will bled MP and often get squad wiped from tank rounds.
If Allied tanks are supported and not flanked on their own, they are not that easy to kill as many here are suggesting.

US blobs can take on OKW blobs.

It's ugly tactic to face and play (for me at least) but it's definitely not 'here comes the volks shreck blob, better type in GG'

Please


P.S. don't compare Cons to volks like for like, there are other units that are part of game like Maxims, mortars, zis barages, etc etc.......
Vaz
25 Dec 2014, 12:01 PM
#23
avatar of Vaz

Posts: 1158

I see shreks having the problem not who's holding it really. They rarely miss and have awesome penetration/damage. The veterency is the icing on the cake.
25 Dec 2014, 15:38 PM
#24
avatar of Thunderhun

Posts: 1617

Overhaul of OKW is high unlikely, but yea MP40s for Volks sounds great idea!


This so much; Shrecks for the STPs and 100% muni income + fixed broken veterancy.
25 Dec 2014, 19:54 PM
#25
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4928

After removing Schrecks, you could also give Volks a Panzerfaust that doesn't engine crit, as a deterrent but not a solution. It's not as bad as a Panzerschreck because they have limited range and you pay for each shot, but it helps fill the gap in AT while providing a munitions drain at even 100% income.
25 Dec 2014, 22:07 PM
#26
avatar of Jinseual

Posts: 598

Usually when I deal with shreck blobs it usually is a point and click where the opponent can deal with any tank either light or heavy.

I feel that the shreck upgrade for volks is made to deal with light-medium armor earlier on in the game but it has also translated into dealing with heavy tanks.

My suggestion is to replace the shreck with the anti tank rifle (Panzerbüchse) that the Germans have in the campaign missions and theater of war missions.

This would allow for the light-medium counter that OKW needs but doesn't supersede its ability to deal with heavy tanks.


Replacing Panzershrecks with anti tank rifles is a horrible idea. If you want Panzershrecks to be only effective against medium tanks and not effective against Heavy tanks, well it's already like that in CoH2. A Panzershreck has 180 to 160 penetration while the Soviet Heavy armor like IS2, KV1, and ISU152 has around 340 armor. That's only a 50 percent chance of penetrating.

The Panzershrecks only inflict 120 damage and all Heavy Soviet tanks have over 800 hp so it would take multiple panzershreck shots to kill one Heavy tanks so in order to kill a heavy tank quickly that would require a huge blob of Panzershreck infantry which is risky because any Soviet Heavy Tank is able to blow up multiple squads at once.

What you want is already done in the game, yet, somehow you failed to realize this. Perhaps you should use your heavy tanks properly.
25 Dec 2014, 22:14 PM
#27
avatar of What Doth Life?!
Patrion 27

Posts: 1664



Replacing Panzershrecks with anti tank rifles is a horrible idea. If you want Panzershrecks to be only effective against medium tanks and not effective against Heavy tanks, well it's already like that in CoH2. A Panzershreck has 180 to 160 penetration while the Soviet Heavy armor like IS2, KV1, and ISU152 has around 340 armor. That's only a 50 percent chance of penetrating.

The Panzershrecks only inflict 120 damage and all Heavy Soviet tanks have over 800 hp so it would take multiple panzershreck shots to kill one Heavy tanks so in order to kill a heavy tank quickly that would require a huge blob of Panzershreck infantry which is risky because any Soviet Heavy Tank is able to blow up multiple squads at once.

What you want is already done in the game, yet, somehow you failed to realize this. Perhaps you should use your heavy tanks properly.


Those blobs are supported by Panthers and King Tigers though.
25 Dec 2014, 22:28 PM
#28
avatar of Jinseual

Posts: 598



Those blobs are supported by Panthers and King Tigers though.


As it should be, infantry combined arms and tanks for best result, is that how you play any other faction or you think it would be fair if the Soviet are able to win with tanks alone.

Also isn't it supposed to be the other way around like volksgrenadiers supporting Panther instead of Panther supporting volksgrenadiers, because if the volksgrenadiers are targeted they would have to retreat or risk squad wipe.

You should try using combined arms yourself then like supporting your tanks with anti tank guns for the same effect ( even though Soviet antitank gun's fire rate is too slow ,but that just means the problems is on Relic's Soviet antitank gun not the Panzershreck) Nonetheless, the Soviet anti tank gun has the same rate of fire as the volks Panzershreck, more penetration, more damage and fire longer distances.
25 Dec 2014, 22:39 PM
#29
avatar of braciszek

Posts: 2053

Now, if only Relic was capable of rethinking bad design choices and do simple changes.
*looks at soviet faction*

Nope, we are all doomed to argue to death because 15 minutes of messing around in the game files is too much to make us happy.
25 Dec 2014, 22:58 PM
#30
avatar of akula

Posts: 589

IMO they are more of a problem vs. infantry (with vet) than they are vs. vehicles/tanks
26 Dec 2014, 02:24 AM
#31
avatar of Blackart

Posts: 344

Just add shrecks for Conscripts :foreveralone:

26 Dec 2014, 04:32 AM
#32
avatar of ZombiFrancis

Posts: 2742

Accuracy for shreks just needs to fall off dramatically at medium and long ranges.
26 Dec 2014, 05:30 AM
#33
avatar of pigsoup
Patrion 14

Posts: 4301 | Subs: 2



Replacing Panzershrecks with anti tank rifles is a horrible idea. If you want Panzershrecks to be only effective against medium tanks and not effective against Heavy tanks, well it's already like that in CoH2. A Panzershreck has 180 to 160 penetration while the Soviet Heavy armor like IS2, KV1, and ISU152 has around 340 armor. That's only a 50 percent chance of penetrating.

...


50%? no prob. panthers and paks don't have much higher pen rate against soviet heavies and they work fine against the heavies.
26 Dec 2014, 06:09 AM
#34
avatar of NinjaWJ

Posts: 2070



Replacing Panzershrecks with anti tank rifles is a horrible idea. If you want Panzershrecks to be only effective against medium tanks and not effective against Heavy tanks, well it's already like that in CoH2. A Panzershreck has 180 to 160 penetration while the Soviet Heavy armor like IS2, KV1, and ISU152 has around 340 armor. That's only a 50 percent chance of penetrating.


i disagree with your statement because schrecks basically pen anything that's not a soviet heavy (is2, ISU). THose tanks are doctrinal too! Basically all your nondoctrinal stuff for USF and SOviet are countered very well by the panzerschreck. It sees silly that that only an expensive doctrinal tank can reliably survive panzerschreck shots.
26 Dec 2014, 06:15 AM
#35
avatar of Jinseual

Posts: 598

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Dec 2014, 05:30 AMpigsoup


50%? no prob. panthers and paks don't have much higher pen rate against soviet heavies and they work fine against the heavies.


Was that sarcasm or just nonsense?

How bout we look at it in a different way, since a Panzershreck only rarely penetrate Soviet armor, that means the Panther and PAK gun can't reliably penetrate the Soviet Heavies.

We're looking at it in a different perspective yet nothing has changed. What's the point of bringing other weapons up? 50 percent is 50 percent that means it will penetrate half the time, bringing up other weapons doesn't disprove my point. If you think Panthers reliably penetrate the IS2 than good for you, however, the Panther rounds can still bounce of Soviet Heavies so what have we learned from what you just posted? Nothing! The Panther also have a much higher chance to penetrate the Soviet Heavies than the Panzershreck at around 65 percent. The Panther's penetration has nothing to do with the Panzershrecks penetration.
26 Dec 2014, 06:26 AM
#36
avatar of Jinseual

Posts: 598

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Dec 2014, 06:09 AMNinjaWJ


i disagree with your statement because schrecks basically pen anything that's not a soviet heavy (is2, ISU). THose tanks are doctrinal too! Basically all your nondoctrinal stuff for USF and SOviet are countered very well by the panzerschreck. It sees silly that that only an expensive doctrinal tank can reliably survive panzerschreck shots.


If you think that's a problem than that's your opinion. However, I was responding to the posters opinion. He believes that it's ok for Panzershrecks to perform well against medium tanks, but it shouldn't perform well against Heavy tanks. I looked at the stats and told that I found the current situation in CoH2 is exactly that.

I don't see a problem with doctrinal heavy tanks because what really matters is whether or not you are able to get Heavy tanks. On the field, it doesn't make much of a difference as long as their is a heavy tank.
26 Dec 2014, 07:25 AM
#37
avatar of NinjaWJ

Posts: 2070



If you think that's a problem than that's your opinion. However, I was responding to the posters opinion. He believes that it's ok for Panzershrecks to perform well against medium tanks, but it shouldn't perform well against Heavy tanks. I looked at the stats and told that I found the current situation in CoH2 is exactly that.

I don't see a problem with doctrinal heavy tanks because what really matters is whether or not you are able to get Heavy tanks. On the field, it doesn't make much of a difference as long as their is a heavy tank.


I agree with you that heavy tanks are more resilient to schrecks. i think in terms of balance though, imo i feel that schrecks shut down allied medium tank play too hard. This jsut fuels the call-in meta even more.
26 Dec 2014, 10:47 AM
#38
avatar of Australian Magic

Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2

Give Stormpio schrecks = end of blobs of death, 2 schrecks per squad, no more vet 5 god mode.
Give Volks 4x MP40 for 60muni or 4x MP44 for 90 muni (OKW lacks of close combat unit) and limited PzFaust, 2-3 per squad, maybe with option to buy them (when 2-3 wasted) - 60muni for 3 new fausts but only in base.
26 Dec 2014, 13:10 PM
#39
avatar of pigsoup
Patrion 14

Posts: 4301 | Subs: 2



Was that sarcasm or just nonsense?

How bout we look at it in a different way, since a Panzershreck only rarely penetrate Soviet armor, that means the Panther and PAK gun can't reliably penetrate the Soviet Heavies.

We're looking at it in a different perspective yet nothing has changed. What's the point of bringing other weapons up? 50 percent is 50 percent that means it will penetrate half the time, bringing up other weapons doesn't disprove my point. If you think Panthers reliably penetrate the IS2 than good for you, however, the Panther rounds can still bounce of Soviet Heavies so what have we learned from what you just posted? Nothing! The Panther also have a much higher chance to penetrate the Soviet Heavies than the Panzershreck at around 65 percent. The Panther's penetration has nothing to do with the Panzershrecks penetration.


not a sarcasm or non sense. straight up disagreement with your view.

you think panzerschrek is already ineffective against heavies and you gave its penetration chances to back your statement up. but the fact is that other german weaponaries such as pak40 and panther at range does not have much better penetration value, although they are invaluable when facing against sov heavies.
27 Dec 2014, 07:28 AM
#40
avatar of ThoseDeafMutes

Posts: 1026

Pzschreks are not a major threat to an IS2 but that feels like a really contrived point of comparison. They are a major threat to the far more common allied mediums. And by the time the IS2s are rolling around, there are Axis panthers or potentially even a KT nearing the field depending on the enemy builds and map control situation. A serious threat to a KV1 even. IS2, ISU and KV8 are the only tanks I'd say that aren't really scared of them, in all cases because their damage output is so significant that the Axis cannot afford to stand and fight with their overwhelming AT dps. This is particularly significant when you're in team games with USF on the allied side. Losing a jackson because the volks blob showed up at an inopportune time and got a single salvo off on you is really not a fun part of the game.

B4 has been my MVP in team games lately, but relying on a unit like that to counter OKW infantry blobs feels like using bullshit to counteract enemy bullshit.
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