Wehrmacht Ostheer

Soviet number of really useful units is far more than ostheer.Let's count

Infantry & support-
Conscripts
Sniper.
Maxim
81mm mortar
120 mm
shocks
Zis-3

Armor and artillery -

B4
Katyusha
Su-85
T-34/85
IS-2
ISU-152
KV-8
Quad Halftrack

Ostheer -

Inf and support -

Grenadiers.
81mm mortar
Pak 40
Pak43

Armor and artillery -

Tiger
Panther
Stug E


There -You can see for yourself buddy.
Soviets have more powerful infantry once shocks are out.
Far superior artillery.
Equal armor.
Better mines.

Decide yourself.

This does not seem to me to be a very good reflection of ostheer.

Infantry:

Pgrens - I make god use out of them and find them to be some of the best non-doctrinal infantry in the game. The problem I find is getting people out of the mindset that they are assault troops, they are not. They are defensive/ flanking/ support troops. They can also be upgraded later in the game to have 2 pshrecks. Yes they are fragile. This means that you cannot charge shermans with them. Use them behind LOS blockers to support your paks and ambush vehicles that go deep.

Ostruppen - Some of my favorite units, they give 2v2 ostheer a very lacking early game punch while also allowing you to lock down vast sections of certain maps with a simple 2-3 ostruppen + command bunker + mg42. Allowing the rest of your forces to help your ally across the other sectors of the map. The best part is that with ostruppen, teching to t4 is quite possible and allows you to be powerful in the lategame as well with non-doctrinal armor that is more fuel efficient (in the long run) and just as capable as an IS-2. The doctrine even allows you to spend munitions on tellers, which many ostheer players find to be a luxury item.

Support:

mg42 - Definitely needs a buff, but is invaluable vs. USF in the early game. A single mg42 can shut down a rifle blob early game, and this is why I get it as my second unit. Requires a fair bit of tactics to use correctly, but is by no means a useless unit, especially when taken with ambush camo.

Mortar HT - Best mobile early game artillery support. Incendiary barrage hardcounters support weapon spam and the entire soviet urban defense doctrine. Also comes in the best doctrine in the game.

Halftrack - The earliest and most accessible HT in the game, with enough armor that it needs the enemy to invest in AT to bring it down reliably. It is also cheap and by and far one of the best ostheer units for supporting an offensive strategy in the early game.

Armor:

P4: By and far the most powerful medium tank in the game, and able to come out slightly slower than a t34/76.
I have never understood people who call the p4 a bad unit. It is a far greater AI platform than a t34/76 and comparable with a sherman, while also having relatively good AT power as well as much better scalability due to the vet 2 armored skirts upgrade. Requires micro to beat t34/85 and sherman e8/76, but not much more than the miro required to allow one t34/76 to fight a panzer 4. Not to mention the fact that p4s also get non-doc lolblitz and doctrinal smoke to keep it alive long beyond its curtain call. The biggest reason that p4s are not seen more often (besides the existance of the tiger) is the jackson, whch is a dediated AT platform. 2 p4 + 1 pak > 1 jackson + 1 sherman + 1 AT gun.

Sturmpanzer 4 - Inaccessible, but one of my favorite AI units in the game. If you build one after a panther, and support it with AT guns, it is one of the best AI platforms in the games and certainly the best at supporting lategame armored rushes by decrewing AT guns and supporting infantry pushes. Not to mention its ability to stun even soviet heavies very reliably.

All in all, I would conclude that as queenratchet said, the problem with ostheer is not in unit availability or redundancy, but in the exorbitant teching osts to get you there. I can tell you right now that if all allins got nerfed in some way to make doctrinal units more appealing, ostheer will have an undoubted lategame advantage. Especially if the asked for change to make the jackson less of a one - hit - wonder goes through.

The most murderous anti-infantry vehicle in the game thanks to having the fastest turning on a crushing vehicle. Sure the gun will kill someone once in a hundred years, but good thing they have threads.

Yes through Crush. Blitzing Panther also says hi. Point being none of the items listed have an MG to bleed infantry even a little bit.

And all the Allied items in that list can be countered by Axis handheld AT in a reasonable amount of time. Which makes matters even worse.

Why did u include doctrinal units?

lmg grens > cons/penals

pg grens > cons penals (even with flames, supported pgrens are very good)

p4 > t34/76 p4 wins at both AI and AT

stug G > su 76

sov sniper > ost sniper

panzer wefer < katy

panther > all armor including su-85

OST Halftrack > sov, sov halftrack cant supress shit. even the ost halftrack can roast shit

pak > Zis When only using stock tanks that Pak shines

shreks > nothing

maxim > mg42 we all know why the maxim is better (im very iffy on this, seeing that in a real game rifle nades rape maxims)

Ost mortor > sov mortor Ost mortor has very high rate of fire and accuracy

and brummbar. i dont consider this a plus. just an option

im probably missing some units

now lets see

Number of units that outperform thier counterpart...

ostheer 9

soviets 3

im not saying that ost is stronger

But soviets take the cake for most useless units

Try to beat a good wehr player without a commander

Thank you for confirming that you don't play soviets

Why shouldn't i take doctrinal units?Soviets are a doctrinal faction.Judging them without it is meaningless.

shocks(basically stock sov infantry these days)>LMG grens >cons/penals>grens(when conspammed)
sov sniper >> wehr sniper
Sov mine >> wehr mines
Stug g and su-76 = redundant as both useless.
su-85>P4 > t-34/76 .But also costlier.

IS-2 /T-85(soviet stock tanks) >tiger
IS-2 /T-85 ~Panther

120 mm=mortar halftrack > gr34 81mm >PM81 mm

Katyusha>> pzwerfer

Maxim>mg42.

Pak43>>Pak>zis.

B4>> Lefh

Ost shrecks on ......pzgrens.End of story.Not more than stopgap.

Now you can make your actual count.Before was a laughable attempt at ignoring the core strength of soviets which is call-ins.You brag about playing soviets and then do this?

Why shouldn't i take doctrinal units?Soviets are a doctrinal faction.Judging them without it is meaningless.

Are you serious?

the main issue is that wehr tech costs are high

If u include doctrinal units, then u are undermining ur own point since doctrinal units dont require tech

You have to only compare stock units

You cant be serious about sov mines beating wehr mines

Teller mine > all other soviet mines

EDIT: Also. how dare you say the su 85 is better than the p4. Thats soo funny, i might have to add that to my signature. Jesus Christ you are clueless

Why shouldn't i take doctrinal units?Soviets are a doctrinal faction.Judging them without it is meaningless.

shocks(basically stock sov infantry these days)>LMG grens >cons/penals>grens(when conspammed)
sov sniper >> wehr sniper
Sov mine >> wehr mines
Stug g and su-76 = redundant as both useless.
su-85>P4 > t-34/76 .But also costlier.

IS-2 /T-85(soviet stock tanks) >tiger
IS-2 /T-85 ~Panther

120 mm=mortar halftrack > gr34 81mm >PM81 mm

Katyusha>> pzwerfer

Maxim>mg42.

Pak43>>Pak>zis.

B4>> Lefh

Ost shrecks on ......pzgrens.End of story.Not more than stopgap.

Now you can make your actual count.Before was a laughable attempt at ignoring the core strength of soviets which is call-ins.You brag about playing soviets and then do this?

Honestly, the only [usless] (I would prefer difficult to use) unit Ost has is the sniper. The sniper at the moment works wonders against Soviets but against USF it is EXTREMELY difficult to kite. Ost's rest of units are either on par or above the soviet non doctrinal units.

MGs can blead infantry. The Panther can also crush. There are no allied Shreks. If you would like to see what 0 AI feels like I present the following:

M10

[twitch=vonivan]chapter_id=4787107[/twitch]

[twitch=vonivan]chapter_id=4787107[/twitch]

And where oh where is that Panther GIF thats been around forever? Yes as noted M10 can Crush. And I am sure it will be "Fixed" at some point just like the Bugged T34/76 ROF. I dont think Relic intended the M10 to be the GTA machine that it is.

The Panthers design however is intentional.

Sayyyy whaaaaaat?

MGs can blead infantry. The Panther can also crush. There are no allied Shreks. If you would like to see what 0 AI feels like I present the following:

Elephant
JagdTiger
SU85
JP4
Jackson
M10

If you try to crush a good player with a Panther which has high move speed but low turning speed your going to get AT naded and die. Or just shit all over by the enemy tanks. The panther is just to expensive at the moment when you to already waste fuel on teching up.

Are you serious?

the main issue is that wehr tech costs are high

If u include doctrinal units, then u are undermining ur own point since doctrinal units dont require tech

You have to only compare stock units

You cant be serious about sov mines beating wehr mines

Teller mine > all other soviet mines

EDIT: Also. how dare you say the su 85 is better than the p4. Thats soo funny, i might have to add that to my signature. Jesus Christ you are clueless

Your comparing tech costs or unit utility?
Havng no tech costs is a massive advantage in itself for several soviet units.
What do you mean 'if u include doctrinal units'.My question is how u can possibly compare the 2 sides without call-ins which are the bread and butter of soviet.Soviet was designed in that way...ur method is totally unrealistic and in denial .

And no sov mine is waay waay better.
It is a dual purpose mine -that doesn't have a silly signborad..is dirt cheap and spammable at half the muni cost of teller.Can at once one-shot a squad which german mines can't do and destroy engine.Squawipe/vehicle buster combo at 25 muni...nothing beats that.

And yes su-85 is better than pz 4 in AT role.Unlike pz 4 it stays relevant whole game and at vet 2 is a beast,it can hurt panthers and tigers while pz 4 is helpless vs is2.Also pz 4 costs more.Head to head su-85 will also by and large kill pz 4 easily.

Honestly, the only [usless] (I would prefer difficult to use) unit Ost has is the sniper. The sniper at the moment works wonders against Soviets but against USF it is EXTREMELY difficult to kite. Ost's rest of units are either on par or above the soviet non doctrinal units.

Non-doctrinal units comparison mean nothing.Because the main units soviet use will be doctrinal.Shocks u will see everygame.And is-2 or t-34/85.120 mm and b-4 occasionally.Ignoring this is just denial.

Non-doctrinal units comparison mean nothing.Because the main units soviet use will be doctrinal.Shocks u will see everygame.And is-2 or t-34/85.120 mm and b-4 occasionally.Ignoring this is just denial.

Because soviets is call-in faction, and doctrines with no call-in is dead doctrines? This is well-known fact.

And no sov mine is waay waay better.
It is a dual purpose mine -that doesn't have a silly signborad..is dirt cheap and spammable at half the muni cost of teller.Can at once one-shot a squad which german mines can't do and destroy engine.Squawipe/vehicle buster combo at 25 muni...nothing beats that.

And yes su-85 is better than pz 4 in AT role.Unlike pz 4 it stays relevant whole game and at vet 2 is a beast,it can hurt panthers and tigers while pz 4 is helpless vs is2.Also pz 4 costs more.Head to head su-85 will also by and large kill pz 4 easily.

Corrections.
-Soviet mines is 30 muni.
-S-minefields are area denial mostly. But are specially good when you setup them on retreat paths, chokepoints, making use of LoS. While the initial cost is 60, you can use them for 15.
-Tellers are 50muni and only activated by vehicles. This means that if you don't give your opponent a reason to get a sweeper (block him with barbwire or s-minefields) you are prone to get a vehicle hit them.
I wouldn't use 30muni mines as OH since you want your investment to be profitable and not hitting some cons. Anyway, you wouldn't have the muni to spam them due to being able to upgrade your units with LMG

-Comparing Su85 with PIV makes you look dumb to be honest. You are comparing a TD with no turret and 0 AI, with a medium tank with good AI and decent AT.

S-Mines actually got a passive buff when Infantry were changed to ignore explosions. Now instead of hitting the dirt after 1-2 blasts, they happily walk into 4-5 and get wiped before you can say "Oh shit minefield!"

S-Mines actually got a passive buff when Infantry were changed to ignore explosions. Now instead of hitting the dirt after 1-2 blasts, they happily walk into 4-5 and get wiped before you can say "Oh shit minefield!"

Assuming ofcourse they didn't see the silly signboard.Remove the sign and put price back to 80 muni and i'm happy.Since its single purpose and also triggered by vehicles for no use.

Assuming ofcourse they didn't see the silly signboard.Remove the sign and put price back to 80 muni and i'm happy.Since its single purpose and also triggered by vehicles for no use.

What if I told you that players are not AI and can't see what all of their squads are doing and even top 10 players fall for them, because they are not robots?

Why would I look at a squad doing some capping on the other side of the map before it was attacked?

What if I told you that players are not AI and can't see what all of their squads are doing and even top 10 players fall for them, because they are not robots?

Why would I look at a squad doing some capping on the other side of the map before it was attacked?

Oh look,its my old friend katitof and another answer that begins with 'what if i told you'.Well professor,here's what i will tell you -its still the least useful mine,not only is ostheer muni starved,it comes with a front premium cost,has the stupid signboard,and is triggered by vehicles while doing no dmg at all.

Oh look,its my old friend katitof and another answer that begins with 'what if i told you'.Well professor,here's what i will tell you -its still the least useful mine,not only is ostheer muni starved,it comes with a front premium cost,has the stupid signboard,and is triggered by vehicles while doing no dmg at all.

Must be why 100% of good streamers use it when they play ost AND okw.

Must be why 100% of good streamers use it when they play ost AND okw.

If they had anything else they would take it half-asleep.

Jesus Katitof. "Good streamers", like all good players, use S-mines for area denial or attempt to sneak them in the oppositions retreat path. All of that can work, of course. You might even succeed at planting them on a capping location and gibbing a squad while the opposing player micros somewhere else. Once, that is. Claiming on that basis that S-mines have anywhere near the same impact or utility as OKW and especially Soviet mines or demos (that you can literally spam owing to the lesser Sov. dependancy on munis) beggars belief though.

Threw in a few Ost games recently after playing alot of US/OKW. All I can say is that you need to be a prime masochist to subject yourself to that ordeal more than sporadically. Correlatingly, when playing US, the difference in facing OKW/OH opposition is very, very tangible.

I have Katitof on ignore, is he seriously stating that S-Mines are as good as Demo Charges ?