Tournament Statistics! (and no pretty graphs DEAL WITH IT)

I think one of the major reasons that Ostheer is underrepresented is the way the rules work. The Axis player always has to declare his faction first. If you declare Ostheer, the Allied player can then "counter-pick" with USF because Ostheer struggles against USF so often on so many maps. With the way factions are in the game though, there needs to be some precedent of one player declaring faction first.

As for Ostheer underperforming, it isn't a huge surprise. The early game strength of the faction has been slowly gutted over the course of CoH 2 with nerfs to the HMG42, LMGs, FHT, tech timing, PaK 40, Pgrens etc etc. The usual justification for this was that late game Tigers/Panthers are super strong. Sadly, Ost T4 isn't feasible in a close game. Ost T3 flounders against Soviet call-ins and USF in general leaving the only option for Ostheer as Tigers. Properly managed T34/85s deal with Tigers without much trouble as long as Mark Target is available. And the new Is-2 can pretty much go head to head with a Tiger and come out on top. PaK40s are still amazing but when a faction is crutching on one late game heavy tank and their AT gun... things aren't looking good.

LMG Grens are still strong but they don't have the ability to hold the line like late game Volks with their insane Vet bonuses (plus the ease at which they get there with schrecks) and 5 man squads. Nor do LMG grens have the raw killing power of Obers. The MG34 fills the same role as the HMG42 but OKW has a better arsenal with which to support it.

Not to mention the fact that the Luchs is the perfect vehicle to tide an OKW player over before getting a Panther whereas investing into a P4 could potentially mean never Ostheer never making it to a Tiger. Plus the P4 is probably easier to kill than a Luchs with the combination of small target size, crazy killing potential, in-combat stealth and raw speed.

TLR - Ostheer is plagued with an overly expensive teching system if you go past anything but T2. Plus their base-line tanks cannot compete with Soviet call-ins or USF Major tanks. Tigers are strong but they come late (often too late against USF). Grens are too fragile and you don't have the luxury of mass amounts of schrecks everywhere to supplement your other AT. Soviet would suffer from the same problems as Ostheer regarding tech costs except they get phenomenal doctrinal choices like Shocks, 120mm mortars, Mark Target, T34/85s and 30 munition mines - oh and demo charges.

wow didnt know about those tourney rules. that explains a lot, thanks for the info

and +1 to the rest of the post

ost have been very dominant when the march deployment patch hit and have been slowly nerfed since. one might argue overnerfed to the point of being no longer viable in early game at all

in team games where its easier to get to the late game, ost is still pretty strong i guess. being able to field panthers and tigers is easier there, but in 1v1 ost is simply put the most masochistic faction

I think one of the major reasons that Ostheer is underrepresented is the way the rules work. The Axis player always has to declare his faction first. If you declare Ostheer, the Allied player can then "counter-pick" with USF because Ostheer struggles against USF so often on so many maps. With the way factions are in the game though, there needs to be some precedent of one player declaring faction first.........................



TLR - Ostheer is plagued with an overly expensive teching system if you go past anything but T2. Plus their base-line tanks cannot compete with Soviet call-ins or USF Major tanks. Tigers are strong but they come late (often too late against USF). Grens are too fragile and you don't have the luxury of mass amounts of schrecks everywhere to supplement your other AT. Soviet would suffer from the same problems as Ostheer regarding tech costs except they get phenomenal doctrinal choices like Shocks, 120mm mortars, Mark Target, T34/85s and 30 munition mines - oh and demo charges.

Pretty much this

Writing those picking and counterpicking rules was not fun, I can tell you. If you have ideas about a better system that doesn't require a third party (Referee or Admin), I'm all ears.

I would love to see a system where there could be blind picking happening simultaneously, but we don't have the Referee manpower to facilitate that in hundreds of matches. It would be nice if Relic considered this situation and built such a system into their interface.

Hidden army picking
Commander banning/picking

There are many things that COH2 could do alot better to make it easier on tourney organizers to run tournaments.

Updated with indepth round 4 statistics as well as a fix

R4 - only KA played with Ostheer?

#esports

R4 - only KA played with Ostheer?

#esports

That's like building KV1s, right?

...I would love to see a system where there could be blind picking happening simultaneously...

I kinda doubt that would help OST in any way. People would still pick OKW over them, for good reasons (as Ciez mentioned).

Near as I can tell, CieZ hit it right on the head and is congruent with plenty of the things I've said all along.

Ostheer's Panzergrens, the 221/2, HMG-42, PaK-40 and T-3 are the bread and butter for Ostheer. You fix those and patch them up to be more intimidating and these numbers might look different.

Also some of the Ostheer Doctrines are a bit weaksauce. Jaeger Infantry Doctrine anyone?

Mechanized Assault is "okay-ish" But Assault Grens are a disappointment when they come out at the exact same time as American Assault Engineers and cost the same in manpower as American Rifles and Assault Engies.


But like I said, give the Ostheer some love in those units and things will turn around for them, maybe.

It would be nice if Relic considered this situation and built such a system into their interface.

Hidden army picking
Commander banning/picking

There are many things that COH2 could do alot better to make it easier on tourney organizers to run tournaments.

Those would be wonderful changes.

Round 5 statistics are up! AND WE NOW GOT TOURNAMENT PLAYERCARDS, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

Excellent stuff, Redwings. This would make a great portal piece once it's complete. Lemme know if you're interested in that.

Spotted a mistake in the Playercards section:

Simon: 2 games
OST: 33.3%
• Volksgren, Volksgren, Volksgren, Volksgren, Raketen: 100%

Excellent stuff, Redwings. This would make a great portal piece once it's complete. Lemme know if you're interested in that.

Sure I'd be interested.

Spotted a mistake in the Playercards section:

Thanks for the heads up! Caught an additional mistake since you pointed it out.

Round 6 is a GOGOGOGOGOGO! Updated with map win percentages (so far)! Updated with how long a game lasts (5 minute intervals)! Updated playercards!

WEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

Only one more round to go.

Its essentially 1943 for Ostheer with this current patch where they are just being run over in most situations especially in 2v2s.

Sooooooooo I put in the round 7 statistics and it failed to update (prompted me with relogin, which I panickly pressed back arrow) and now I am slightly frustrated.

But the data is all there! Check out the link for spreadsheety goodness.

Poetic thread.Ostheer's true skeleton revealed.

This would make a nice newspost or blog post for the portal with some clear formatting and a bit of written interpretation.

From the round 2 statistics, how can you get 65,5% of 120 games recorded?

From the round 2 statistics, how can you get 65,5% of 120 games recorded?

It was derived out of round 2, with okw chosen/axis chosen (38/58) which roughly equals 65.5%. I know faction choosing is inherently biased, but if I account for the tournament rules, I fear there isn't much data to go on.

This would make a nice newspost or blog post for the portal with some clear formatting and a bit of written interpretation.

I think I can tidy up the statistics into more meaningful results. I want to avoid generalizations like the one below.

Poetic thread.Ostheer's true skeleton revealed.

This is what I have a problem with. You need to take a look at the data and all the factors surrounding the tournament before you make a blanket statement like that.

I'm going to start off that I agree ostheer has its problems. But to the point you are portraying it? Using my statistics to back it up without considering everything first? That's deceptive.

First of all, ostheer is underrepresented in this tournament. A big factor in this is the tournament rules. Ostheer was chosen only 14% of the time (39/278, barring missing data). You know what else? USF was chosen only 15% of the time (42/278).

Now you might be so inclined to say, but look at the win rate, ostheer is so low! Yes, you are correct. They only won 25.6% of the time (10/39). But have you considered the maps that the game was played on?

Let's look at semois. There is an astounding allies bias in this map, with their win rate at 88% (15/17). Ostheer has 25% win rate as a result (1/4). Then let's move onto khlodoney ferma. Remember that all allies has to start on the right side, which is widely considered to be the much weaker start. Yet despite this, allies have a 53% win rate (34/64). Ostheer has only a 30% win rate here (6/20). Now in langres, there is a slight axis bias with a 53% win rate (10/19). Yet remember, they start at the north, which is usually regarded to be the weaker side since it is much easier to harass. Only ostheer won 25% of the time (1/4), so this really indicates that OKW carried ostheer with a fairly high win percentage, which turns out to be true: 60% (9/15). Then we have faymonville. Again, axis starts at the south, with a rather annoying fence and a stone wall at their cutoff that allows allies to easily harass it. Yet the win percentage for the axis says otherwise, at a 53% (19/36). OKW has artificially raised this win percentage, as the ostheer sits on a 18% win rate (2/11).

In short? Because of the maps and the way spawns were declared, ostheer suffered while OKW seemed to fair better. If the positions were reversed, we may have seen a dramatically different result. Again, we can see that ostheer is weak and that you are not entirely wrong. But to the point that ostheer's true skeleton is revealed? Not even close.

Of the top 4 players (Jesulin, Luvnest, Cruzz, and OMGPOP), OST was only played 3 times. Cruzz: 6% (1/18), Jesulin: 6% (1/17), Luvnest: 6% (1/18), and OMGPOP: 0%. Of those 3 games, only Jesulin has one once, for an ostheer win rate of 33%. Might be low? Absolutely. Because of the way ostheer is structured? Maybe. Because of the absurdly small amount of times ostheer is represented? Absolutely. We can't make a conclusion because ostheer's skeleton has not been revealed. It has been tossed aside because of many possible reasons. (Player preference, map, commander ban, bulletin ban, tournament rules, etc.)

So who is the champion of the ostheer as of THIS TOURNAMENT only? It was koreanarmy. He had a 66% win rate (2/3) and played ostheer both on langres and faymonville. Yet he only represented 8% (3/39) of the ostheer population.

TL;DR: Don't make a generalization without considering all the factors of the tournament. Ostheer is weak, but not as weak as you like to portray on the company of heroes 2 forums.