M36- badly underpowered?

Id take a vet 3 su85 over a vet 3 jackson in most situations.

Fire rate is way better, and it will actually penetrate

None of the stats I posted are cherry picked as you claim. In my comparison post I included the JP4s target size advantage. Also the high damage is not higher due to reload. Again clearly indicated in my previous post. Please illustrate in that post where the stats I posted are incorrect. I do not agree with your opinion. And you can ad hominem all you want. Clearly you didn't read that post and probably don't care to because the most important trait to you seems to be its mobility.

Just because Ciez says so top player or not isn't going to change that given the right circumstances an SU85 especially with mark can kill a tank faster than a Jackson. Saying something is best is merely subjective. Ciez thinks with his play style that the Jackson is best because it's mobile. Many other players think it's not because it's fragile. I simply showed that at destroying tanks through a higher penetration and sustained DPS the Jackson is not the best. Again please show me a fact the disputes that.

I'm not sure what part of my post you thought was ad hominem but if you read it again I literally don't say anything about you as a person or as a player. I also never cited the notion of myself being a "top player as a reason why I'm correct.

Quick side-note @Vaz: In my post I mentioned pretty much every single stat I could think of when comparing all the TDs - armor, hp, mobility, damage, cost, and target size. The only thing I didn't directly mention is the penetration values but I generally tend to tie those in with overall damage output. Furthermore I even went on to compare the utility of the vehicles when mentioning MGs on the Panther, stealth on the Jp4 and vehicle crew capabilities of the Jackson - the Su85 sadly has no utility in my opinion (I guess the vet 1 ability is kind of okay sometimes?). Not entirely sure what other stats you'd like me to present in my arguments. Oh and one of the major points of my arguments is that unit stats do not matter nearly as much as actual in-game performance/unit interactions. I was simply referring to stats because that's what people in this thread seem to have been obsessed with.

Oh and @Ivan - for the Jackson to live longer it would need a higher HP value, unless you wanted to buff the armor to the point of being able to deflect AT gun shots, which would be a huge buff.

As for the penetration argument that keeps getting brought up the Su85 and Jackson have N/M/F values of:
Jackson - 200/180/160
Su85 - 200/190/180

This does not account for the Jackson's vet 1 ability and translates to a roughly 12% lower chance to penetrate at max range against a Panther's frontal armor. In my opinion, and based on in-game experience that isn't a hugely significant difference in penetration especially considering the Jackson does 33% more damage per penetrating shot. To look at it in a more concrete way - the Jackson will kill both a Panther and a Tiger in one less shot than the Su85 (4 to kill Panther for the Jackson, 5 to kill Panther for Su85 - 5 to kill Tiger for Jackson, 7 to kill Tiger for Su85).

And the DPS of the Jackson exceeds that of the Su85 at max range, which is the most important range for TDs by far. However raw DPS values on a spreadsheet are awkward and don't exactly translate in-game well because there are so many other factors in play in an actual game. (But this stat still supports the Jackson).

If we look at the accuracy of the Jackson versus the Su85, the Jackson has significantly higher far accuracy 0.035 vs 0.025 while the same near accuracy as the Su85 0.05 for both.

Furthermore the Jackson's accuracy while moving is 0.75, versus the Su85s 0.50 - which means the Su85 gets punished considerably harder for having to kite or chase enemy tanks. Not to mention the mobility of the Su85 is horrendous making it harder for the Su85 to chase than the Jackson.

The armor values of the two tanks are, for all intents and purposes the same.
Jackson Front/Rear - 130/60
Su85 Front/Rear - 140/70

A faust has 140 far penetration, so it will penetrate both tanks 100% of the time from the front and I can't think of a situation in which 10 frontal armor will help either of these tanks. I guess against a Puma?

There are two areas in which the Su85 is stronger than the Jackson. Reload time and HP. The Su85 has 640 Hp versus 480 of the Jackson meaning it survives one more hit in most situations. Reload time isn't truly an advantage as we can see that the Jackson does indeed have higher theoretical DPS - the drawback of the Jackson in some situations is actually overkilling tanks because that extra damage is "wasted." The Su85 technically *can* kill a Panther ~2 seconds faster than the Jackson assuming that every shot from both tanks hit and penetrated the Panther's frontal armor - however even that scenario is more in favor of the Jackson simply because it needs less shots to hit/penetrate and has higher accuracy & a lower accuracy penalty for firing on the move (does get a minor reload time nerf while moving though). It is still a good example of how spreadsheets and raw stats are misleading.

All of these factors don't even begin to consider other important issues such as the location of both tanks in their respective tech trees. With the Major tech you get Scotts and Shermans, both of which are good and useful tanks. I personally prefer the Scotts because I'm more of a 2v2 player and they tend to do ridiculous amounts of work in 2v2 but I've seen Romeo, Lemon, Honeynuts and plenty of others using Shermans to great effect in 2v2s. As for the Su85 and Soviet T4 the only unit worth building is honestly the Katyusha. The Su76 is garbage. Plus you get the utility of having a Major on the field when teching as USF.

I simply cannot see why from a statistical standpoint (which is in my opinion flawed in the first place)
nor from a real in-game performance standpoint why anyone would pick Su85s as performing better than Jacksons.

In my opinion for actual TD purposes: Jackson > Panther > Jp4 > 10 cons with AT nades > mass demo charges > my cat > Su85.

For overall tank performance purposes the Panther wins because of the MGs and its ability to do actually sort of okay against infantry - but the Panther also costs the most by a considerable amount and only has 50 range as opposed to 60.

For a practical example of how good Jacksons can be:
http://www.coh2.org/replay/27905/lemonciez-vs-tristanlevit

I literally couldn't care less for the extra damage when the thing doesn't penetrate, I don't get a Jackson to fight medium tanks, I get it to fight things a sherman can't fight and then my dedicated, super squishy 90mm tank destroyer can't penetrate half of the time, it can't do what it's supposed to do and can't kill infantry either.

If I wanted to destroy a medium tank I would get a Sherman not a goddman thing that is useless against infantry once it accomplishes (if only) its job.

I literally couldn't care less for the extra damage when the thing doesn't penetrate, I don't get a Jackson to fight medium tanks, I get it to fight things a sherman can't fight and then my dedicated, super squishy 90mm tank destroyer can't penetrate half of the time, it can't do what it's supposed to do and can't kill infantry either.

If I wanted to destroy a medium tank I would get a Sherman not a goddman thing that is useless against infantry once it accomplishes (if only) its job.

The Jackson without Vet 1 popped has a 50% chance to penetrate the frontal armor of a Panther and a 53% chance to penetrate the frontal armor of a Tiger. That's pretty decent in my opinion. You are right about it not killing infantry though, but every TD shares that weakness.

The Jackson is perfectly balanced as it is.

It must be used carefully with some spotting unit(s) to fully show it great potential. Never use it as a main battle tank, but use it as a long range mobile support unit that can destroy any axis tanks from afar. With it, you can move quickly where the enemy is pushing with armored units.

For full effect use them in pairs or best in trios.(especially in 4vs4)

Always use reverse to keep you gun at the enemy when backing.

Thanks.

The Jackson without Vet 1 popped has a 50% chance to penetrate the frontal armor of a Panther and a 53% chance to penetrate the frontal armor of a Tiger. That's pretty decent in my opinion. You are right about it not killing infantry though, but every TD shares that weakness.

How is that decent? It's not a medium tank, it can only do that and it does it half of the time?

No wait it's not even that because you have to account for shotblockers, miss, blietzkrieg and its -accuracy bonus, so you have even less than "half of the time". What exactly is the counter to Axis heavies other than "pray to god he hits an M20 mine" and p47?

Snip

Cherry picking and Spreadsheet warrior can be taken as an attempt at character assassination which is a form of Ad Hom. If that was not your intent I apologize. I also am the one that called you a top player I know you didnt claim that. But it is true.

I understand your points. But my beef is at that stage in the game the ability for USF alone to project firepower is limited. When heavy tanks hit the field USF in my experience needs to be ALOT more careful. Which means always uning the Jackson at Max range and almost never giving chase to damaged tanks. Once it gets Vet 1 then yes its ALOT better because it can Pen often. But its hard to get there with OKW Panthers due to the high chance to bounce shots. Which is my issue with the Jackson.

The main reason I feel the SU85 is better is because the faction that its in has a really good ability to mitigate alot of its weaknesses. And can have access to Mark Vehicle which good or bad GREATLY impacts AT DPS.

For example its not uncommon for a Blitzing Panther to hit a Mine going after an SU85 at which point its MEAT to an SU85. With the USF unless you got crazy with the M20 its alot less likely so the Jackson can only really enjoy its speed to try to escape. But against a Blitzing Panther this is hard to do and with the current state of AT Rnades is hard to stop.

I also said I dont hate the Jackson nor think its Garbage. I just dont think its the answer to the USF not having a heavy tank. I think for it to be its damage against heavier tanks needs to be more consistant to discourage a YOLO Panther Blitz rush.

I also play Primarily 1v1 not 2v2. I understand with Soviet support the Jackson is probably alot better. But as a stand alone APEX tank I really dont think its enough. Also I feel its stats are always compared to Non Dedicated Tank destoyers and people forget that there are OTHER 60 Range TDs in this game and they can be quite effective. So in my eyes going OMG Jackson SO GOOD NO NEED FOR ANYTHING ELSE is not correct unless the same treatment was given to other factions that posses non doctrinal Purpose build Tank Destroyers that lack any form of AI.

What, discussion, the jackson isn't up. But it's fragile and has to be used from distance. I really don't know what's the problem some people have with it. It has a very good range, good mobility (if the pathing doesn't fail), it does a good ammount of damage and to increase the pen you can use it's ap rounds. But it seems some people have problems hitting the button or something, so it can't be helped. Just keep the jackson on range, use it as hit and run vehicle and destroy the enemys tank when he's trying to engage you. And btw the jackson does already shred medium tanks.

I think the jackson could use more acceleration and a buff to its AP rounds ability. I also think the jackson is kind of OP vs ostheer T3, but not really that strong vs heavies. So I would support a damage nerf in conjunction with a penetration buff to make it more consistent in its role.

I think the jackson could use more acceleration and a buff to its AP rounds ability. I also think the jackson is kind of OP vs ostheer T3, but not really that strong vs heavies. So I would support a damage nerf in conjunction with a penetration buff to make it more consistent in its role.

^ Its an RNG machine since often it will bounce off a panther mid range 3 times, and sometimes it penetrates a Tiger multiple times. I prefer hitting it more than constantly rolling a deflection...

Jackson is strong but its unreliable

Reliability > Strength

If u add it the shot blockers, misses, and bounces. jacksons penetrates about 33% of the time

I think the jackson could use more acceleration and a buff to its AP rounds ability. I also think the jackson is kind of OP vs ostheer T3, but not really that strong vs heavies. So I would support a damage nerf in conjunction with a penetration buff to make it more consistent in its role.

On the surface I support this because more consistency leads to a better ability for players to correctly predict the outcomes of fights but it gets complicated when it comes time to crunch the actual numbers - or maybe I'm not not good enough at math.

A simple example:

Let's say we want to nerf the damage of the Jackson, but buff it's penetration so that the time-to-kill a Panther remains the same at max range. Right now we know that with 100% penetration the Jackson will take ~23.2 seconds to kill a Panther at max range, simple extrapolation of this data would lead us to assume that given the actual penetration value of 50% versus Panther frontal armor at max range that it should take a Jackson ~46.4 seconds to actually kill the Panther. This hasn't even begun to take into account accuracy/moving accuracy penalties or any other things thrown into the equation like Mark Target/AT nades/etc. Although perhaps we disregard those things when trying to keep the relative performance of the Jackson in a vacuum the same while nerfing damage but buffing penetration?

Anyways so now we have to figure out what the penetration of the Jackson should be since we can safely assume that, if given a nerf to damage, it'll deal 160 damage per shot like the majority of other tanks in the game (and all the other TDs outside the Ele/JT). Keep in mind that in doing this we also remove the defining characteristic of the Jackson - high damage, which removes some of the uniqueness and flavor of the unit. In most cases that would be fine because balance should trump flavor/realism/etc - but I don't think the Jackson is OP nor do I think it is UP, but that's my opinion and a discussion for a different time (well technically this topic, but not this particular post).

Back to the math.

So the Panther has 800 hp, the Jackson is now doing 160 damage per shot. This means 5 penetrating shots to kill the Panther. So now we're at 29 seconds to kill assuming 100% penetration but we need to increase penetration so that the Jackson should kill the Panther in ~46.4 seconds. The Jackson can shoot exactly 8 times in 46.4 seconds leading us to a max-range penetration percentage of 62.5% of the time. The Panther has 320 frontal armor meaning the 60 range penetration value of the Jackson would have to go up to 200. Of course the near/mid values have to increase proportionally.

So yeah... I'm not even sure all of my math is technically correct especially because things with math get sticky when you bring in question of: "If we want the Jackson to kill the Panther in 46 seconds MOST of the time what values do we need etc etc." Not to mention the fact that the law of averages doesn't really exist in the cases of CoH 2 penetration because each shot is independent of every other shot - whether or not the last shot penetrated has no effect on the chance of the next shot penetrating.

And then it just gets more and more complicated with having to factor in near/mid penetration values as well as near/mid reload values as well as moving accuracy/reload penalties as well as any vet bonuses that the units may or may not have...

Personally I'm fine with the Jackson only penetrating the Panther 50% of the time on front armor at max range at vet 0. To me 50% feels like a number I can rely on and feels more concrete than something like 62.5% of the time or whatever other number we end up coming up with. In the end it is just a placebo effect that 50% "feels" nicer than 62.5% to me personally because in reality when I'm playing the game I don't sit there and think "well the Jackson penetrated my Panther last shot, meaning I can push up because the next shot is more likely to bounce" - the only thing that truly matters when it comes to in-game situations is the current situation. If the Jackson is kiting my Panther properly I know that I cannot chase it because I will not win that fight the majority of the time (60 range vs 50 with for all intents and purposes the same mobility). For this reason I rely on PaK40s to counter Jacksons. Again I'd like to reiterate the idea that in-game experience/knowledge/situations always trumps unit statistics.

Soooooooooooooooooooo yeah. Maybe some one better at math or some one at Relic that gets paid to do this sort of thing can figure out a fair way to make this sort of change - and I'd probably support it... I just don't see it being as easy as most people try to make it out to be (not calling you out specifically Romeo because your idea is solid).

Actually I have to give honeynuts credit for the idea

And also I agree with you that it does take away that feeling of the jackson being a super awesome mega cannon if you reduce its damage.

Most tanks do 160 not 180, but that doesn't change the outcome of this particular theory

I'm gonna make a simple comparison.

IS2 use to deal 240dmg with a high reload time. If you actually kit, you could overcome that 9-10s reload time. Then it was bring to 160dmg with a reload time more or less equal to a Tiger.

I guess the Jackson could be brought to a similar level. This means higher pen with a faster reload time. AP shells could mean and increase on dmg/pen instead or just make it vet0 and improve it's vet.

So the Panther has 800 hp, the Jackson is now doing 160 damage per shot. This means 5 penetrating shots to kill the Panther. So now we're at 29 seconds to kill assuming 100% penetration but we need to increase penetration so that the Jackson should kill the Panther in ~46.4 seconds. The Jackson can shoot exactly 8 times in 46.4 seconds leading us to a max-range penetration percentage of 62.5% of the time. The Panther has 320 frontal armor meaning the 60 range penetration value of the Jackson would have to go up to 200. Of course the near/mid values have to increase proportionally.

What if the panthers at vet 2?

What if the panthers at vet 2?

Then you lose the game, just as relic intended

Actually I have to give honeynuts credit for the idea

The Jackson should probly be doctrinal and be similar to a Sherman with a Panther's gun.

Back when the M36 unit profile was first revealed, been advocating it ever since #nocredit

IS2 use to deal 240dmg with a high reload time. If you actually kit, you could overcome that 9-10s reload time. Then it was bring to 160dmg with a reload time more or less equal to a Tiger.

I guess the Jackson could be brought to a similar level. This means higher pen with a faster reload time. AP shells could mean and increase on dmg/pen instead or just make it vet0 and improve it's vet.

Fully agree with this, additionally, Osttruppen had their damage halved and accuracy doubled in the name of consistency. There is precedent for such a change to the Jackson as well.

Some more food for thought, for those saying that the Jackson being unreliable against heavies:

The Jackson has a 53.33% chance to penetrate the frontal armor of a Tiger at the max range of 60, assuming no vet 1 ability popped.

The Panther has 58.66% chance to penetrate the frontal armor of an IS-2 at the max range of 50.

Yet I never hear complaints of the Panther being unreliable against Soviet heavy armor despite extremely similar chances to actually penetrate enemy heavy armor. Additionally the Panther has a longer reload time and a more punishing moving accuracy penalty nor the fact that it takes the Panther 7 penetrating shots to kill an IS-2 but it only takes a Jackson 5 penetrating shots to kill a Tiger. And the Panther is more expensive.