[Developer] Map Improvement Poll

My vote goes for Hurtgen Forest since it's an insta veto everytime but as said before, most maps needs light or heavy tweaks.

Semoisky: Bridges need to be bigger (1-2model) to avoid the truck block, specially against USF.
Why can't we deploy trucks or structures on the outsides of the base?

Stalingrad: dunno what can be changed to improve but it's an insta veto with axis.

Crossing in the woods: base bunkers shouldn't cover completely the cutoffs. This aplies to other maps as well.

Faymonville/Langres/Kholodny: dunno what but you need to keep closing the gap advantages each sides gives. South, south, west.

Trois Point: it's still easier to lockdown the map from the north spawn.

Moscow Outskirt/Rhzev Winter: easier to play on the south. Specially on the 2nd map

General:
-reduce base bunkers covering strategic points
-remove/move houses which let you spawn inside the enemy base

rostov is by far the worst map.

All of these maps need a redesign in how territory points are addressed.

The three variants of territory points are far too limiting in making dynamic resources on a map.

Low, medium, high resource points, and strategic points are paramount to actually developing maps into something more than a checkerboard of resources.

Semois was unique because it had a medium fuel point next to the bases.

Langres was unique because there were three medium fuels and a high munitions point behind decently accessible cut off points.

The generic 100 unit pop cap doesn't help either. Map control correlating to pop cap is another huge component of map design that's completely devoid.

I voted Rostov for reasons already stated in this thread.

The priority list should be something like this:

1. Rostov

2. Trois Ponts

3. Hürtgen Forest

4. City 17

Several of them could use some easy improvements, I couldnt pick just one.

Easy rule of thumb also, no destructable bridges on automatch maps.

Kholodny Ferma Winter.
West side has the munitions advantage because the point is so close to their base.

I want new maps rather than balancing the old ones.

I'll take a shot at this, from a 1v1 perspective, so my cards are on the table.

The Veto System

I do not have access to the same stats as Relic, so here be some generalisations that I believe to be somewhat accurate based on my experiences and the maps I find myself playing on most often, enough to notice a trend. This may not reflect everyones experiences of course.

Axis players will generally veto Stalingrad, Le Glaize and +1 more (one of the Semoskiys/Kholodny) as they are close quarters maps. Allied players will generally veto Langre, Crossing on the woods and +1 more (minsk/whatever). Thus I often myself playing on the same two maps much more regularly then the rest, i.e. Kholodny Spring and Semoskiy summer. See the below images.

Kholodny Spring gamecount 101:Show Spoiler

Semoskiy Spring gamecount 96: Show Spoiler

Langre gamecount 52: Show Spoiler

Crossing on the woods gamecount 57: Show Spoiler



That is just a snapshot of the 1v1 maps I generally end up on, Langre and crossing on the woods were the closest maps I had to the much more played Semoskiy spring and Khlodney Spring. I.e. I play these maps most often by a distance. I would suggest the way the veto system is currently working, some maps are much more played then others due to a process of elimination. I'm not sure how you get around this, but it does get old and i'd suggest it shows a trend in how players perceive the maps and thus use their vetos.

Specific Map Suggestions

Here i'll discuss the current 1v1 maps in automatch rotation, and where applicable, provide screenshots.



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The fence on the east side (shown in the above image) needs to go as it slows down the play too much. Support teams have to skirt around and take a significant enough detour.

As a more general comment, I think the building in the middle is a bit too prominent as control of it is a significant advantage. The amount of fences around the west side entrance could also be toned down a wee bit I feel, to open it up just a tad.

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Quite open and generally considered an Axis map. Crossing the river is mostly red cover and generally a good map for Axis to camp on. How you address this, i'm not quite sure.

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The image above says it all really, so many shot blockers/green cover/yellow cover, that this is an allied favoured map due to the medium-short range fights.

As an aside, this big building in the middle tends to favour the southern player, as it covers every direction with windows, except for the south facing of the building.

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These hedges on the northside cutoff needs to go imo, replace it with green/yellow cover. It makes holding the north cutoff more difficult then the south due to the shot blockers.

I'd also consider the VP's, generally I find when playing from the south, holding the central VP is more difficult then when starting from the north. More accessible routes and cover to exploit for the northern player imo.

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Considered an Axis map by most, as it is quite open and a bit smaller then the standard 1v1 COH2 maps. The above hedge in the middle imo, needs to be removed and replaced with yellow/green cover. As it stands now, the Southern player has an advantage due to the hedge which covers the route to their natural resources bar the fuel.

I'll plug Romeo's video here, as I largely agree with his suggestions, bar his suggestion of the moving of the fuels.

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On the western side, I believe the Hedge, close to the house and North resources could do with changing, possibly again to green/yellow cover. This opens it up a bit and makes it easier to defend the Western side. As it stands, Axis players have a hard time holding in the early game, as the allied player has quite a few routes to attack and get into the sweet spot of medium/close range fighting.

I'm not particularly a big fan of the house in the north next to the munitions point, as I feel often, it can feel like a rush to it as whoever holds it, gets a big boon, Western player for defending the muni's and his cutoff, East player for pressuring those points and denying the munitions.

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Again, imo, this is an allied favoured map, with the bonus of blizzards, only one Muni point and fuels that are spread quite apart. I'd like to see the blizzard mechanic removed, it does not work in competitive play and has largely been dropped anyways from the game. Khlodney winter is the last 1v1 map in rotation with blizzards still as a "feature".

I'd consider opening up the routes from which the Western player can access the North fuel as well, perhaps putting a gap somewhere in this fence:

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I'm also, again, not a fan of the house next to the northern fuel.

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I've put together the two Semoskiys, as I only have a general comment for them, and that is, they are big with the resources spread across the map for the most part. Add in lots of cover, buildings and shot blockers, you got a good mixture for allies and a bad one for axis generally speaking. How you go about addressing this considering the COH2 resource system, i'm not quite sure tbh.

Pathfinding around the urban middle of the map with vehicles can be a bit wonky at times as well.

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Again, not many specifics to say about this map, it is quite large for a 1v1 map and indicative of the original COH2 maps on release, seemingly somewhere between a 1v1 and 2v2 map, multipurpose, but does not really fit either gametype imo!

The open is quite open, apart from some tree's/bushes that block small amounts of LOS and some yellow cover spattered around. Make the middle VP a slugfest if the game goes on.

Due to the open nature of the map, particularly in the middle, I think people generally consider this one slightly axis favoured.

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Great looking, cool theme, too urban and close quarters, meaning it favours allies. I can't add much here, as I veto it as axis, and as allies, I don't get to play it much, as Axis players generally veto it..!

General Map Design Going Forward & Conclussion

1v1 maps in coh2 tend to be quite big, certainly larger then vcoh. Imo, this is a contributing factor towards people adopting certain strats, such as the big t1 play which is the meta, to gain map control. I'd really like to see some smaller one's tried out in the future, perhaps along the lines of Langre size or a bit smaller. Also, design these maps with open-ish areas and closed-ish areas, ie. find a middle ground between the open maps like Langre/Crossing which are considered axis favoured as the firefights are often long range, and the closed ones, e.g. Semoskiy/Khlodney that have more medium/close range firefights which tend to favour allies.


Anyways that is allot more then you asked for, i'm aware, and I appreciate anyone who has read this far. I just wanted to give my insights as I really feel map design/balancing is a prominent contributing factor to the balance of the game and meta. I want cool 1v1 specific maps that are nice to look at and work well, not favouring either faction or where you spawn on the map.

A hard ask, I know, but if Relic are serious about competitive play, its something we need to move forward with

Rostov should be more forgiving towards the north players than as it is now.

Hill 331 should come back with at least one more opening onto the side VPs for the north left side and south right side.

I would also like City 17 Winter to come back with fewer blizzards.

Langres summer - needs more green cover

Stalingrad - remove this map pls?

Kholodny winter - remove most of the deep snow (especially these in base sector) and make map look like summer version

Kholodny summer - needs more green cover in middle i think

Faymonville - remove this wooden fence near south cut-off that blocks movements, north cut-off need more cover fron north side, fuel points needs more green cover so they are harder to capture/defend

La Glezie - make more spam in middle by removing these wooden walls and stone walls, and maybe remove this already destroyed building?

..Oh...and convert Angoville already please

(Thought it would come soon after WFA tbh!)

We should be able to vote more than one map in the poll. There are a lot of maps that would love to receive an improvement.

In 1v1 I find myself most of the maps are way too big and I don't like them at all. Faymonville Approach is one of my favourites because of the size and the constant skirmishes.

Imo all of them need improvements, some of them are even beyond saving.

I'd suggest to remove minsk pocket and both semoski from 2v2 automatch.

I'd aslo suggest to remove stalingrad from 1v1 automatch.

+1 on Bryans post.
I wish I had the energy to give this thread the post it deserves but..
Nowadays, I veto same maps with all factions (1v1) just to avoid having to play on winter maps. Deep snow near base on Kholodny, deep snow around house closes to base on Semoisky and the south fuel just makes me... not enjoying it.
I've worked with the WB a bit so I can appreciate the work and thought that has been put into it! With that being said, I do love playing Ostheer and the selection of maps that are semi-suitable for them are very limited in my opinion. I'm pretty sure that any "open" map you would add to the 1v1 rotation will be enjoyed and appreciated.

Hopefully I'll find the motivation to name details on specific maps that I have an issue with.

Rails and metal, allies is weak when starting at nothern side.
Crossing in the woods, middle VP need more green cover on nothern side.

I've been waiting for this thread for a while since I think changing maps would both improve balance and diversity. I'd like to give show you my point of view about the maps from a 1v1 player's point of view.

I wanted to thank Bryan aswell for his considerable contribution to this thread.

The main problem for balanced maps is the fact, that Allied faction are best at short-to-mid-ranged and Axis Factions at long range. Allies are the ones who usually are on the advance, while Axis defend. As a result, open maps always favour Axis and narrow, urban and Hedges and flanking routes filled maps favour the Allies. This makes balancing maps difficult.

My Vetos as Axis:

• Stalingrad
  
• La Gleize Breakout
  
• Semoisky Winter
  
• Kholodny Summer left side (if I could, balance issues)
  
• Kholodny Winter left side (if I could, balance issues)
  
• Faymonville Approach left side (if I could, balance issues)
  
• Semoisky Summer right side (if I could, balance issues)
  
• Semoisky Winter right side (if I could, balance issues)
  
• Road to Kharkov left side (if I could, balance issues)
  
• Minsk Pocket (if I could, personal dislike)
  

My Vetos as Allies:

• Crossing in the Woods
  
• Langreskaya
  
• Minsk Pocket
  
• Road to Kharkov left side (if I could, balance issues)
  
• Semoisky Summer right side (if I could, balance issues)
  
• Semoisky Winter right side (if I could, balance issues)
  

Main concerns:

• Faymonville Approach
  I like this map. But the building in the middle is terrible. Especially if Axis start on the Northern side. You need a clear front to operate from as Axis (especially as Ostheer). Diffrence of night and day when Axis start out in the South where there are less Buildings and more open ground.
  Remove the woodden fence in the South pls, because units always have to take a detour when trying to get to the middle vp unless you have a vehicle to run over it.
  
• La Gleize Breakout
  Favours the Southern player enourmously. Easier access to buildings. In fact a terrible map for Axis in general with all the houses. Make it easier for the North to access the center by removing all the Stone walls.
  
• Stalingrad
  Beautiful map, don't get me wrong, but just remove it. It's an Axis hell.
  
• Crossing in the Woods
  First approach for a symmetrical map, beautiful. While beeing outflanked in the beginning by Allies infantry, the end always turns out into long range LMG spam. As I already mentioned, open wild fields and red cover rivers usually favour Axis late game.
  
• Langreskaya
  I don't like the VP placement in the on this map. Even if you have full map controll, you usually only outcap your opponent 2:1 since there is always one VP directly next to your base.
  Lack of cover in the center as Barton mentioned aswell.
  
• Kholodny Ferma
  It's a diffrence of night and day whether the Axis player starts on the right hand side of the map or on the left. The right side is easier to defend due to more open ground, the access to fuel is closer as well.
  The left side is a death trap though, especially with Ostheer. Especially when your opponent gets a hold of that house in front of the base. Remove the hedges on each side of the house as Bryan already mentioned.
  
• Kholodny Ferma Winter
  Same as on the summer version. with the slight change of making it easier for the left hand side player to reach the house. This could be done with a slight gap in the woodden fence along the house.
  
• Semoisky
  Axis have troubles here aswell as it is an urban map. The house at the right player's side has more windows than the on the left side, which is unbalanced.
  Put the Fuel back to it's original positions as in the winter version of the map.
  OKW Truck abuse is already known.
  
• Semoisky Winter
  Remove deep snow around buildings for more maneuverability.
  
• Road to Kharkov
  Basically what Bryan said. The northern Cutoff is simply terrible.
  
• Minsk Pocket
  Even though the map is symmetrical (more or less) it has many issues and I don't like playing on it. The middle of the map is a mess (Pathing, only Yellowcover). The northern fort can be completely negated by putting down Barbed Wire (even more crucial as OKW with reinforced barbed Wire) while you can't do the same on the other side. This benefits the player in the south enormously. Where's the balance in that perspective?
  

While each of these maps are beautifully designed, I'm convinced that symmertrical maps bring more balance to the game. Crossing in the Woods is going in the right direction in that matter.

One thing nobody seems to ever talk about is tactical map updates. I would appreciate it if the mini map exactly matched the full map. Every time there is an update to a map, say a house is moved or removed, the mini map is never updated to reflect that. It always stays day 1 version. Is it hard and time consuming to have an updated tactical map re-rendered? IDK, but my guess is that the map engine probably generates it for you, and the map updaters are just skipping that step all the time.

This has been an issue since vCOH as well. When I see units garrisoned inside a house on the tactical map, and their position is not where the house silhouette is it just stands out to me. I'm the kind of person that would fix that if I could. If I was a map maker, I would certainly give as much attention to the tactical maps accuracy as I do the full one.

Several should just be retired instead of being fixed.

Stalingrad
Rostov
Lazur Factory

Community spotlight needs to be not forgotten. I like the idea, but why haven't I seen some map rotation?

Serpent Basin should be in the spotlight as well. I love it.

Faceoff at Rostov! This map needs critical changes for the players in the North side of the map.