The imbalance between Allied and Axis Infantry Anti-tank

Hahaha:

The more I think about it, the more I like the idea for the panzerbuchse rifle instead of pshreck for grens. Pshreck can then be reduced to 70 mu, and given to sturmpios who are not really spammable. The reason I hear a lot of the time for the shreck on the volks being important is so that OKW can fend of light vehicles, and if anything the panzerbuchse rifle will have a higher DPS and therefore higher value vs. light vehicles.

Of course, such changes will also require a buff for the raketen, most likely a reduction in the weapon "ready-aim" time.

In terms of price, I like the idea to make the AT rifle cost 35 mu, or maybe 50, and then panzerfausts for the squad (AT package). I doubt that guards syndrome will be a problem since volks are not really good AI infantry, and don't lose too much DPS when they swap out a rifle for an AT rifle. It will be similar to the conscript AT package, except that they will have access to one slightly better rifle.

That could work for 1v1, possibly 2v2. Think it would be a huge problem for 4v4 mode.

P.S. Volks are meant to fend off medium armor as well and support heavies vs allied heavies and AT guns.
Raketen cannot cut it and maybe Volks wouldn't lose much AI value but would lose a lot of AT value and become drain on ammo.
I am finding it difficult to picture myself wining 1v1 vs Soviet IS2 supported by Zis with VI B supported by raketen and AT rifles

If Shreck was removed from Volks, Raketen needs to be way better than it is now. Perhaps even give it green cover. It would still have the lowest range, and terrible ready aim time.

if the raketen didn't have such a long aim time it would be fine

Maybe, it would have to be tested. it is literally okw's only reliable at if you take shrecks away until a puma or JP4.
And because of this change everyone would always opt for the puma.

The Raketen does well against Allied mediums actually with good pen. It would probably need its aim time reduced or a buff to the vehicle crew. TOo many buffs and it could end up OP

Just ready aim time and green cover and it would be in a good spot

The Raketen does well against Allied mediums actually with good pen. It would probably need its aim time reduced or a buff to the vehicle crew. TOo many buffs and it could end up OP

It also misses... A LOT. Hits debris specially in urban maps too often (objects like barrels and vehicle remains). I think buffing only ready aim time and reducing misses (not the actual accuracy) would be enough. Although cover for the crew is debatable, since it has less range and should be closer to front line, I would suggest green or at least yellow cover.

As for blobbing, I still think a general buff to all MGs would be great, just like before the patch which nerfed them. M2 is a joke, MG42 does 0 damage and squads can get past it, and maxim does not have enough suppression scatter.

Great OP/Thread Silver Sage. Good to finally see the hard numbers for what I have felt for a long time is the problem with Panzershreks - its long range performance.

One thing I don't agree with is everyone crying out for shreks to be removed entirely from Volksgrenadiers. If Relic were to do this, Volks would become little more than useless cannon fodder. There isn't really a suitable infantry unit in the OKW roster to pass the shreks on to. Sturms are too high on MP cost to have a shrek upgrade and Obers are also expensive and come out too late to properly replace the AT role of volks.

The easiest (and likely most effective way) to fix the over-performance of shreks for both OKW and ostheer is to reduce the long range accuaracy - or maybe even the penetration - of the shrek AS WELL AS increase the range/targeting time of the Raketenwerfer to compensate for the shrek nerf.

Nerfing shreks without buffing the Puppchen would make OKW have even more trouble countering light vehicles in the early game.

I feel like this is one of the bigger balance issues between the factions, and considering the performance differences between Allied & Axis armour it boggles the mind that Axis have access to such a powerful hand-held AT weapon whilst the Allied factions have extremely poor performing hand-held AT.

Like many other balance problems, The issue is even worse in 2v2 and larger games, where Axis are able to pump out more Super heavy armour AS WELL as amass blobs of Panzergrens/Volksgrenadiers that roam the map absolutely dominating even the heaviest allied tanks.

I'm a self-confessed OKW whore and have spent quite a bit of time thinking about this issue, so take than into account before anyone tries to cry Allied fanboyism

Raketen needs to have either more crew members or ope ratable by a single crewman. A major problem the Raketenwerfer has is that being so small, 2 of the crew members are less than a meter apart at all times, the others may or may not bunch up as well. This leads to a weapon that is easier to decrew than any other.

Great OP/Thread Silver Sage. Good to finally see the hard numbers for what I have felt for a long time is the problem with Panzershreks - its long range performance.

One thing I don't agree with is everyone crying out for shreks to be removed entirely from Volksgrenadiers. If Relic were to do this, Volks would become little more than useless cannon fodder. There isn't really a suitable infantry unit in the OKW roster to pass the shreks on to. Sturms are too high on MP cost to have a shrek upgrade and Obers are also expensive and come out too late to properly replace the AT role of volks.

That's the key. No more schreck blobs. 2-3 squads at most and without stupid veterancy buff.
For Volks I would see Pzfaust (maybe limited to 3-4) and 4x MP40 upgrade for 60muni or 4x MP44 for 90. Close combat unit OKW does not have.

That's the key. No more schreck blobs. 2-3 squads at most and without stupid veterancy buff.
For Volks I would see Pzfaust (maybe limited to 3-4) and 4x MP40 upgrade for 60muni or 4x MP44 for 90. Close combat unit OKW does not have.

Well, if they are moved from Volks to Sturms all you will be doing is either having no one use EITHER of the units or just spamming Sturms as Volks currently are. No point in doing that.

The MP cost is just too high to build the required numbers of Sturms. Puppchen's currently are nowhere near good enough to replace shrek'd volks, and even if they do get a buff they still won't be able to completely replace shreks. The size of the sturm squad also presents a problem. that 1 less model means you get one-shotted/wiped/vehicle pushed easier and will have to retreat your shrek squad more frequently, thus leaving you with less AT on the field compared to Volks. To make shrek sturms viable Relic would probably need to decrease the cost or increase the squad size of sturms, so basically you'd end up with a Volks squad with StG44's instead of rifles.

I don't understand why so many people are adamant that shreks MUST be removed from Volksgrenadiers. The simpler solution is just to make Shreks far accuracy slightly less and maybe reduce the Damage/Pen of shreks a tad as well. This will also slow down the Volks rapid vetting because less shreks will be hitting their target and giving XP to the volks

I don't understand why so many people are adamant that shreks MUST be removed from Volksgrenadiers.

Because it's the strongest handheld AT Weapon on the cheapest main infantry. With Veterancy which is easy to get due to low requirements, they become more durable than Shock Troops.

People need to stop placing so much emphasis on the unit itself and think about its place within the faction.Yes, Volks may well be one of, if not the strongest Handheld AT unit in the game, but they are also part of a faction that has arguably the least capability for countering light and medium vehicles.

The alternatives to shrek'd volks with current faction design are Puppchens. As I've said in my previous posts, OKW will become even more broken if shreks are moved to Sturmpioneers with out a major faction overhaul, which Relic won't do because it takes time and effort.

We can sit here until the cows come home calling this and that unit OP, but calling for MAJOR overhauls is a waste of time when it is clear Relic is hardly managing to troubleshoot minor bugs, let alone major balance issues which take a lot of time and effort to rectify.

Volksgrenadiers CAN be fixed with minimal effort IMO, without the need to remove shreks entirely and make Volks a forgotten unit.

People need to stop placing so much emphasis on the unit itself and think about its place within the faction.Yes, Volks may well be one of, if not the strongest Handheld AT unit in the game, but they are also part of a faction that has arguably the least capability for countering light and medium vehicles.

Puma?

1 stormpio with 2 schrecks + buffed raketen + puma can easily handle medium tanks.

What's more, Soviets can handle medium tanks only with ZiS, Guards and mines but OKW wont be able with schrecks, raketen and puma?

T1+T2 is really micro intense for Soviets.
Stormpio with schrecks + raketen and Puma of you need it, also would be micro intense but yea, let's garden it, mindless volks blobs are better.

i'm kind of confused by the vet of OKW. OKW is supposed to be the veteran faction but they get more vet levels than everyone else, which kind of implies that they're not very veteran and so have more to learn (or that they're super people). they could have given them 2 vet levels and had them start at the equivalent of vet 1. would have solved a lot of problems with creep

i'm kind of confused by the vet of OKW. OKW is supposed to be the veteran faction but they get more vet levels than everyone else, which kind of implies that they're not very veteran and so have more to learn (or that they're super people). they could have given them 2 vet levels and had them start at the equivalent of vet 1. would have solved a lot of problems with creep

And what's the point of vet then ? Just give the buff and done.

And what's the point of vet then ? Just give the buff and done.

well it could simulate the hardened veterans facing down AMerican troops at the Bulge. They could start off stronger but the their vet would eventually equal other factions vet. Maybe just another way to approach the game. Right now, the OKW just become godly once they get their vet, it is kinda insane.

If M1 57mm AT buff penetration but Reduce damage per shot (Form 160 to 120)
like First COH Airborne Recoilless rifle is good ?

The more I play against OKW, the more I find the idea of removing or nerfing Schrecks unappealing.
OKW has enough of a problem as is in dealing with medium armor, and I have not seen a Volks/Ober blob ever being a problem at a solid level of play. Since OKW has no nondoctrinal snare, you can pretty much run over/push around 2 squads of Volks with a medium largely risk free provided decent micro. In general, counterblobs/Allied elite infantry or really any sort of AOE weapons deal with Volks fairly easily.