About the B-4

Yes and there are 3 commanders that have recon/stuka combo... Are you honestly telling me on a 2v2 map you cannot push with your volks super blob and have a stuka creep behind and barrage a B4?

Sure you can, but the loses you'll suffer for decrewing a B-4 won't be worth it.

Because I have done it many, many times. Moreover; if your playing 2v2 one of you should be OST anyway for counter-play against these kind of strategy's which is exactly what the commander system was made for.

Yes, there are 3 stuka/recon commanders which all are mediocre. Going for one of those means no g43, no mortar HT, no Tiger.

If your still having issues with a single ISU-152 stopping your entire army from making a single counter push in one direction to get your stuka within range of the B4 I think this is a L2P issue. If your still struggling I am more than welcome to play a few OKW games with you and I'm sure we will come up against a B4 and I will show you what to do.

And I repeatedly managed to hold my enemy at bay only using an an Army centered around ISU/guards, especially on narrow maps like minsk or charkov it's no that big of deal.

Yes, there are 3 stuka/recon commanders which all are mediocre. Going for one of those means no g43, no mortar HT, no Tiger.

Sure, but there is only 1 B4 commander and using it means no conscript ppsh, no 120mm mortar, no T-34/85/ IS2/ISU152. See how your argument works?

Not to mention 1 of those commanders(Luftwaffe) allows your team to KT rush(with OKW) which is quite potent in large team games.

Yes, there are 3 stuka/recon commanders which all are mediocre. Going for one of those means no g43, no mortar HT, no Tiger.

Hmm yeah you are right. Without those it is really hard to counter the counterattack doctrine that have b4 and, and hmm no I'm stumped. He has one good thing, you only need to counter that .

you still have a good standard army as ostheer.

You want to play one way and have realised that way has a hard time countering this particular unit. So you want the game to change to better suit your playstyle.

Or you can adapt your playstyle when faced with the b4.

I love the b4 but rarily use it. Why? It gets hard countered so I only ever use it when I know that it can be effective

Because i think the discussion is focusing in the "wrong" direction of the problem, i'll quote myself again.

Static artillery lives on a black and white world, where you either have the direct hardcounter or you pray to make a push so powerful that you are able to YOLO your tanks into the enemy base.

IMO: static artillery design is a bit flawed.
With the new changes, i think offmap (besides Stuka) don't 1 shot artillery. Perfect.
Artillery shouldn't be able to be built under the protection of the MG bunkers, inside the base.
This also means no automatic reinforcement or healing.
By making artillery more vulnerable, you could reduce a bit the mp to build them making them a bit more affordable on 1v1.

Specifically talking about the B4:
Veterancy shouldn't be affecting reload time neither damage.
Vet1: PS
Vet2: increase rotation speed/aim time etc.
Vet3: range

The weapon on itself needs a huge increase on popcap while reducing the crew popcap. This solves crewing it with CE to reduce popcap and mp drain.

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My line of thought is that you shouldn't be FORCE to choose a commander to remain competitive or be able to deal with a doctrinal/nondoc unit.

Those who are saying just use a Stuka commander, are directly falling in the same discussion as the ISU vs EleJT, Call in meta, or let's just use the same commanders over and over again because they are the only reliable ones.

You shouldn't have to use an ISU because the blobbing army is too strong. You shouldn't have to use a JT to counter the ISU. You shouldn't have to use a B4 to be able to deal with a JT/KT. You shouldn't have to go Close Air support/Jaeger Armor to deal with the B4.

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TL;DR: Static artillery needs to be more affordable but more vulnerable to non offmap threats. B4 needs to be bring more in line with the other artillery regarding veterancy and crew, while the other 2 need some love.

Sure you can, but the loses you'll suffer for decrewing a B-4 won't be worth it.

if you decrew the b4 your only helping your enemy because the bug with the pop+mp income. currently the pop and reduced mp income comes from the b4 crew, not the gun itself.

Snip

Mostly agree with this. But if we want to keep the units outside of the bases adding range to the b4 is the wrong way to go. What keeps it out in field now is its shorter range.
Sure on small maps this makes little difference. But yes disable the ability to us in the spawn is a good way to go.

regard to it needing to be weaker:

A flank by infantry will decrew it. A flank by a p4 will destroy it.

Sure, but there is only 1 B4 commander and using it means no conscript ppsh, no 120mm mortar, no T-34/85/ IS2/ISU152. See how your argument works?

Well thats usually what your partner brings in 2v2

Hmm yeah you are right. Without those it is really hard to counter the counterattack doctrine that have b4 and, and hmm no I'm stumped. He has one good thing, you only need to counter that .

you still have a good standard army as ostheer.

Well Shocks and th KV-1 are quite useful in my experience and in 2v2 you need to have counters to both enemy player's armies so not having a Tiger or a Mortar HT can make quite a difference.

You want to play one way and have realised that way has a hard time countering this particular unit. So you want the game to change to better suit your playstyle.


Or you can adapt your playstyle when faced with the b4.

I love the b4 but rarily use it. Why? It gets hard countered so I only ever use it when I know that it can be effective

No I don't. I don't like to be limited in my commander choice and this goes both ways, When I see that my enemy picked some stuka/recon commander I wont be able to use the B-4.

It's the same thing with Jagdtiger/ISU which has been discussed to death.


To make myself clear once more. I don't think the B-4 is op per se. I think the precision shot is too strong and it's vet bonusses are over the top. This ability alone can win you the game, which I think is very boring.

On top of that I'm against the whole black and white balance mechanic where you can only counter a unit with one specific, doctrinal hardcounter. This applies to various commanders and abilities from different factions, some of which have been discussed already.
This is something that makes the gamplay boring and onedimensional.

Because i think the discussion is focusing in the "wrong" direction of the problem, i'll quote myself again.



IMO: static artillery design is a bit flawed.
With the new changes, i think offmap (besides Stuka) don't 1 shot artillery. Perfect.
Artillery shouldn't be able to be built under the protection of the MG bunkers, inside the base.
This also means no automatic reinforcement or healing.
By making artillery more vulnerable, you could reduce a bit the mp to build them making them a bit more affordable on 1v1.

Specifically talking about the B4:
Veterancy shouldn't be affecting reload time neither damage.
Vet1: PS
Vet2: increase rotation speed/aim time etc.
Vet3: range

The weapon on itself needs a huge increase on popcap while reducing the crew popcap. This solves crewing it with CE to reduce popcap and mp drain.

____________________...________________________________

My line of thought is that you shouldn't be FORCE to choose a commander to remain competitive or be able to deal with a doctrinal/nondoc unit.

Those who are saying just use a Stuka commander, are directly falling in the same discussion as the ISU vs EleJT, Call in meta, or let's just use the same commanders over and over again because they are the only reliable ones.

You shouldn't have to use an ISU because the blobbing army is too strong. You shouldn't have to use a JT to counter the ISU. You shouldn't have to use a B4 to be able to deal with a JT/KT. You shouldn't have to go Close Air support/Jaeger Armor to deal with the B4.

____________________...________________________________


TL;DR: Static artillery needs to be more affordable but more vulnerable to non offmap threats. B4 needs to be bring more in line with the other artillery regarding veterancy and crew, while the other 2 need some love.

Exactly my thoughts. Very well put!

Mostly agree with this. But if we want to keep the units outside of the bases adding range to the b4 is the wrong way to go. What keeps it out in field now is its shorter range.
Sure on small maps this makes little difference. But yes disable the ability to us in the spawn is a good way to go.

regard to it needing to be weaker:

A flank by infantry will decrew it. A flank by a p4 will destroy it.

Static artillery gains range with vet. I didn't say to add range at vet 0.

1v1: artillery is rarely seeing due to either commander selection or mp shortage. Making one is a HUGE investment thought for a long run.
2v2: map are still small that you can put them inside your base and on some cases even shell the enemy base. THIS is the reason why i say they shouldn't be able to be built inside the base under MG bunker cover.

Cause there is no way to flank it with infantry or tanks.

On top of that I'm against the whole black and white balance mechanic where you can only counter a unit with one specific, doctrinal hardcounter. This applies to various commanders and abilities from different factions, some of which have been discussed already.
This is something that makes the gamplay boring and onedimensional.

This.

Well thats usually what your partner brings in 2v2






Well Shocks and th KV-1 are quite useful in my experience and in 2v2 you need to have counters to both enemy player's armies so not having a Tiger or a Mortar HT can make quite a difference.





No I don't. I don't like to be limited in my commander choice and this goes both ways, When I see that my enemy picked some stuka/recon commander I wont be able to use the B-4.

It's the same thing with Jagdtiger/ISU which has been discussed to death.


To make myself clear once more. I don't think the B-4 is op per se. I think the precision shot is too strong and it's vet bonusses are over the top. This ability alone can win you the game, which I think is very boring.

On top of that I'm against the whole black and white balance mechanic where you can only counter a unit with one specific, doctrinal hardcounter. This applies to various commanders and abilities from different factions, some of which have been discussed already.
This is something that makes the gamplay boring and onedimensional.

The only reason the B-4 has come to be so prominent is because axis have tanks which are very difficult to counter as allies.. Jadgtiger, King Tiger.. even Tigers themselves.. in a way, the B-4 has become the black-and-white counter to these vehicles..

Just like other abilities like the skill plane this is a click to win unit. Breaking fundamental coh2 mechanics like combined arms and micro and forcing the player to counter it with only specific commanders.

I think it could be fine, if there is not the stupid vet 3 bonus that allows you one shot heavies and half of the army when pointing at the base after somebody retreated his army.
Zeroing artillery was just nerfed so that it doesn't wipe out a army that is repairing & reinforcing in the base, why should this unit be allowed?

Again this unit only shines in large team games like 3v3 or 4v4. Can be good on specific maps but at the same time it's very situational.

Only good at Vet2 and 3. Getting there is a challenge that involves a considerable amount of luck.


Edit:
Fairly good against turtle OKW play so maybe that's the reason everyone cries about it

Just like other abilities like the skill plane this is a click to win unit. Breaking fundamental coh2 mechanics like combined arms and micro and forcing the player to counter it with only specific commanders.

I think it could be fine, if there is not the stupid vet 3 bonus that allows you one shot heavies and half of the army when pointing at the base after somebody retreated his army.
Zeroing artillery was just nerfed so that it doesn't wipe out a army that is repairing & reinforcing in the base, why should this unit be allowed?

Because in 3v3/4v4 which are the most heavily played games, there is no way to counter multiple King Tiger/JadgTigers with vet5 volk shreck blobs surrounding them.

The only reason the B-4 has come to be so prominent is because axis have tanks which are very difficult to counter as allies.. Jadgtiger, King Tiger.. even Tigers themselves.. in a way, the B-4 has become the black-and-white counter to these vehicles..

Did I say any different?

Because in 3v3/4v4 which are the most heavily played games, there is no easy one click way to counter multiple King Tiger/JadgTigers with vet5 volk shreck blobs surrounding them.

Corrected that for you.

Did I say any different?

No, but then your post should have been regarding the topic of black-white counters if you agree, rather than against the B-4 as a single unit.. you've basically just proven your bias towards axis by wanting a nerf to the only counter to certain units.

Corrected that for you.

Yeah it takes alot of skill for OKW shreck blobs to kill a jackson.. oh wait..

It's funny because in team gates the absolute best way to deal with Volks blobs and JT is using the B4. Simply force a retreat then hit his medic truck. Iv gotten games were my B4 had more than 100 kills on it because my enemy didn't think to unblob his squads.

I've seen some people in this thread lying straight up to our face when they say that the B4 one shots super heavy tanks. A vet 3 B4 DOES NOT one shot a Jagdtiger OR a King Tiger. It sure as hell one shots everything else in the game at vet 3 but NOT a Jagdtiger or a King Tiger.

Proof @ 36:00:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rF4eSBlgBac&list=UUKmfxfyHrZeX6OHAg0lwjgw#t=2160



GustavGans is comparing the 2v2 game mode with what the Allies can get. So if the Allies players get a B4 and an ISU, you simply get a Jagdtiger + stuka bombing strike and you've hard countered everything they got. You almost always see at least one of the Ost players having Jaeger armor or one of the two "air" commanders Ostheer equipped.

As Ostheer you should NEVER have problems with the B4. If you do have problems then you picked the wrong commander.