JU-87 Strafe shredding tanks.

Ah, good. I was contradicting that lone statement, so im happy to see real support.

I was thinking about those completely useless Ostheer and SU commanders made in early CoH2 time which we all know and make fun of.

Thanks!

I appreciate when people take time to try to actually see what others are saying and debate points and play devil's advocate with out flaming them or being a jerk.

The simple solution here would to just have the JU-87 strafe call in 2 planes at half the damage so it more closely mirrors the P47 strike.

is everyone only playing one faction or why so much bias on both sides?

I'll try to conclude what i've seen and read. I'll jump from facts, to observed problems and try to propose some solutions that keep the fun and get rid of the gardening. Wall of text incoming!

JU-87:

Costs: 200 Mun
Duration: 75 Seconds (!)
Damage: A lot
Range: My guess is 35 radius (Check Second 21, the Sherman was standing at the edge of the circle)
Reaction Time: None for first Strafe (Red Smoke, 3 Secs till plane aims, 3 seconds later payload is delivered); this should give enough time to reverse out of range before 2cnd one aims. But no time should be lost.
Ability to hit moving targets: Projectiles feel extremly fast. From experience i'd say more miss when fast reverse on a road for example, but bullet travel time is insane compared to rockets. (All tanks stood still in the movie)

Conclusion: Very potent for area denial, first run will score damage for sure. If correctly used it can stop a tank based attack nicely, acompany your own tank based attack, or snipe Katyuashas.

Gameplay problem:

1.)First strafe can not be evaded, which is ok for tanks. But the damage is inflicted so short after the smoke, that its extremly easy to follow up and get the kill. No unsopported P47 can do that, cause it takes ages for payload delivery. And Blitzkrieg.
2.)Its targets are, Is-2 apart, all mildly armored and of kinda low health. It onehits jacksons and light vehicle stuff.
3.)Soviet Tierstructure denys Anti Air to everything but T3 play. Anti air costs, if not included in playerstrategy 150 fuel. AA-ht of muerica costs a lot.
4.)Even with anti air, you can not just sit outside the circle and shoot the plane down like an injured duck(no offence eend), like you can mighty P-47 circling for potential pray, cause it doesnt. You enter the area with a worthy target, plane comes for 6 seconds and is gone. Your bait takes the damage ad you pray to rngesus.

Metagameplayproblem: Concluding the points above, it brings extremly potent 75 seconds of area denial and can snipe high value targets in the proces. Its very costly, risky and uncertain to conter.

Now one should maybe consider faction balance and different metagame more when comparing it to P-47. But it should be judged not in comparision to another abilty, but in light of the role it plays or can play anyway.

To the observed game: Weak gameplay made it all the more devastating, maybe even the su could have been saved. But only if he expected the strafe and reversed all the way, forcing tiger into the mine. After that the right side should have been avoided for the next 75 seconds. I guess it was a game changing moment.

Solution (maybe?):
1.) Change the way it works to circling for tagets, so there is a reliable chance to conter it, if one decides to do so.
2.)Delay payload delivery, maybe without changing the amount of damage. So the unavoidable damage is done in safe area, when reaction time of the victim is spot on.
3.)Fix the hitchance so fast reversing light vehicles are save enough to not be onehotted if reaction time is spot on.

Merica has top gunner to counter it, soviets got nothing, strafe itself can kill Jackson with first strike, take 50% on other meds like Sherman or T34, it also happens to wipe inf squads which is fun cuz no other plane has a possibility to wipe squads

The very idea of having off map arty like the USA p4 and this anti tank is beyond bad gameplay. They require no skill to use what so ever and basically win you the match with a single click.

Not only that, it takes no effort to save munitions as all points give fuel and muni, so you can expect to see them more than once per round.

Evading them is next to impossible due to the slowness of all vehicles in this game, and even if they were evadable they are implemented into the game about as badly as one could imagine.

They are one step down a "I win" button. It actually sickens me a bit to think anyone would think this is a good idea in a Company of Heroes game.

I genuinely cant believe the mindset of anyone that defends this sort of bs. I am reaching the point where I genuinely have nothing in common with a COH2 fan.

For the mouth breathers that defend this - explain how you "wont blob" your tanks, or move out of the area in a.) terribly designed maps where you are forces to blob ( nearly all maps) or b.) as you are pulling off an attack ( you units are all in pretty close distance) and then at the very best case scenario you will take heavy damage from these planes and then either escape with little not no health or be destroyed by the opponents army.

The closest thing COH had to this was the strafing run, which was a pinning move. This meant it was no OP but still a bit lame. It cost 200 muni in a game where 200 muni actually meant something and would not win you the game in a single pass, unless you got damn lucky and your opponent really messed up.

Not perfect but definitely could live with it.

The very idea of having off map arty like the USA p4 and this anti tank is beyond bad gameplay. They require no skill to use what so ever and basically win you the match with a single click.

Not only that, it takes no effort to save munitions as all points give fuel and muni, so you can expect to see them more than once per round.

Evading them is next to impossible due to the slowness of all vehicles in this game, and even if they were evadable they are implemented into the game about as badly as one could imagine.

They are one step down a "I win" button. It actually sickens me a bit to think anyone would think this is a good idea in a Company of Heroes game.

I genuinely cant believe the mindset of anyone that defends this sort of bs. I am reaching the point where I genuinely have nothing in common with a COH2 fan.

For the mouth breathers that defend this - explain how you "wont blob" your tanks, or move out of the area in a.) terribly designed maps where you are forces to blob ( nearly all maps) or b.) as you are pulling off an attack ( you units are all in pretty close distance) and then at the very best case scenario you will take heavy damage from these planes and then either escape with little not no health or be destroyed by the opponents army.

The closest thing COH had to this was the strafing run, which was a pinning move. This meant it was no OP but still a bit lame. It cost 200 muni in a game where 200 muni actually meant something and would not win you the game in a single pass, unless you got damn lucky and your opponent really messed up.

Not perfect but definitely could live with it.

may be using it when it is most effective and most timely is a skill. maybe easy to acquire skill, but p47 is a long away from a step down from "i win" button.

i feel 200 muni worth something. grenades, BARs for usf, lmgs, mines for osteer, mines, schrecks for okws, mines, at nades for sovs.

I think this ability and the P-47 are both balanced. But I think it would be more fun if they cost a lot less and did a lot less, AND all AA units were a lot less effective so they had more time to fire, AND plane crashes did zero damage.

But since none of those things are the case I think the abilities need to stay the way they are to be worth their price tag.

But since none of those things are the case I think the abilities need to stay the way they are to be worth their price tag.

So, would you say they are well balanced against each other - cost / return wise?

Yes, I would. There are a lot of other imbalances in the game, and these abilities may serve to highlight them. But I don't think they necessarily contribute to them.

That being said, this ability has almost never been used against me.

I think it's also important to consider that Ostheer really struggles against USF this patch.

Finally keep in mind that I'm speaking from a 1v1 and 2v2 perspective only. As usual, in team games I'm sure it's way worse.

I believe that the hardest part of developing any RTS Multiplayer is balancing. This game was not developed by a bunch of amateurs . There will be a lot of brainstorming behind any balance changes and I trust dev team had weighed in lot of pros and cons before implementing this, most posts I read in this thread have a view point from single faction so stop and learn to adapt.

37mm cannons were no joke may be Relic should consider adding quad cannon variant of Dornier Do 217 instead of JU-87

Yes, I would. There are a lot of other imbalances in the game, and these abilities may serve to highlight them. But I don't think they necessarily contribute to them.

That being said, this ability has almost never been used against me.

I think it's also important to consider that Ostheer really struggles against USF this patch.

Finally keep in mind that I'm speaking from a 1v1 and 2v2 perspective only. As usual, in team games I'm sure it's way worse.

Wait, wait, wait. Ostheer struggle against USF this patch? That doesn't seem to be the case based on my observations.

I have been playing as the US for some time now exclusively as the Allies (as I was bored of SOV) and use Airborne pretty much exclusively (as the other commanders are not up too much) and I can say very safely from experience that this ability is far more effective then the P-47.

I have had the P-45's make three passes and barely scratch a KT, granted sometimes its seems to work but it seems it AO is just pathetic, a yard to the side of a tank and it does nothing, very hit or miss (excuse the pun) it takes direct strikes to see any benefit.

The fact that it costs less and lasts for 70+ seconds just seems like a bit of an insult.

As for balancing I probably think that a slight damage reduction is needed and it should circle looking for targets IMO just to bring into line with its counterparts.

I believe that the hardest part of developing any RTS Multiplayer is balancing. This game was not developed by a bunch of amateurs . There will be a lot of brainstorming behind any balance changes and I trust dev team had weighed in lot of pros and cons before implementing this, most posts I read in this thread have a view point from single faction so stop and learn to adapt.

37mm cannons were no joke may be Relic should consider adding quad cannon variant of Dornier Do 217 instead of JU-87

Schrage musik? I would love to see it shoot things below it.

I think it can be agreed that this ability works far more effectively than the P-47 strafe does, in this current patch. Therefore, I think the Cost of the JU-87 strafe should be increased to reflect this superior performance, to say 260 or 280. Yes that's expensive, but considering it can one-shot Jacksons and put allied mediums into a position in which a Panther can easily finish them off... I'd say it would be worth it.

I have had the P-47's make three passes and barely scratch a KT, granted sometimes its seems to work but it seems it AO is just pathetic

Well sir if you want P47 call ins to be effective pop smoke with sherman close in with rifle squad and AT nade the KT from side then call in P47 and see the magic.

-It shouldn't wipe infantry squads.
-Shouldn't target support weapons.
-Could stand to do a little less dmg to vehicles.

it has a relatively long charge up time. Most of the time, it is very easy to get out of it, unless you have a damage engine.

Also buy ISUs and profit, especially on that map

The close air support one is crazy good now. Before it was basically useless because of how long it took to arrive, but now you just pull it in from the close edge of the map and it'll do a lot of work for you. CAS now perfect commander

I think it can be agreed that this ability works far more effectively than the P-47 strafe does, in this current patch. Therefore, I think the Cost of the JU-87 strafe should be increased to reflect this superior performance, to say 260 or 280. Yes that's expensive, but considering it can one-shot Jacksons and put allied mediums into a position in which a Panther can easily finish them off... I'd say it would be worth it.

How about no? It still arrives 3x slower than P-47's or IL-2's. It's fine as it is considering it can only kill Allied medium tanks that are neglected or ignored in placement.