Pioneer and Engineer Health Reduction

I have brought up this issue a couple of times post game to my in-game opponents and I'd like to hear the opinion of CoH2 members before I say anything on the SEGA forums. Basically I am finding that flamer Pioneers and Engineers have way to much health than they need per man. At the moment the way it stands in terms of stats is:

Pioneers/Engineers: 80HP, 1 armour
Conscripts: 80HP, 1 armour
Grenadiers: 80HP, 1.5 armour

What I find is that due to the very small amount of damaged caused by small arms fire, when focusing down a flame pioneer completely out of cover, they take very little damage at all. As the targeted Conscripts walk backwards, I continue to focus the Pioneers down with other squads but this takes way to much time to force a retreat on the pioneers. This excessively large amount of time focus firing from conscripts often allows grens, pgs or other supporting units to deal the pain.

Basically such a high DPS and relatively cheap unit stands up way to long in a fight. It's not like the flame pioneers/engineers of CoH1 where if they are caught out of cover for 2-3 seconds and focused they will take a decent chunk of damage, retreat or die. I am finding these pioneer flamers extremely hard to tackle in the mid-game as Russians, without a vechile doing all the job. Only thing I ever find useful is using a molotov in their shortest movement direction path to buy extra time or use Ohhh Rahh and get a greater distance fast. I find it is easier to force the retreat of a engineer flamer with Ostheer because they generally have a higher DPS infantry, especially when equipped with LMG, mpg44 or G43.

I feel as though a 10% - 15% health reduction or armour reduction would be suitable for the situation. Would like to hear what you guys feel about this aswell or have any advice on how to tackle it? Most the time post-game when I state this to my opponents I am met with abuse and others think its fine the way it is, but state no real advice.

I agree on the problem but not the solution. You are fighting other infantry aswell. You don't have a problem with them having the same HP because they don't kill you that fast.

So your problem here is with the flamethrower. I would like the flamethrower to have a damage reduction against targets not in cover. Flamethrowers weren't really open field weapons for storming enemy lines. Their main use should be city fights and clearing trenches/cover. So let them shift a bit from a general purpose weapon to a specialist weapon.

I agree on the problem but not the solution. You are fighting other infantry aswell. You don't have a problem with them having the same HP because they don't kill you that fast.

So your problem here is with the flamethrower. I would like the flamethrower to have a damage reduction against targets not in cover. Flamethrowers weren't really open field weapons for storming enemy lines. Their main use should be city fights and clearing trenches/cover. So let them shift a bit from a general purpose weapon to a specialist weapon.

The problem will still arise in 2 squads vs 2 squads. If in cover: you will die from the flamethrower, if out of cover, the other squad will get you.

Make Pioneers more squishy (armor, since apparently, the coh2 design philosophy is keep all HP levels standard), problem fixed.

The flamethrower SHOULD be a deadly weapon. Its costing you 60 muns, it better damn do what's advertising, you also always run the risk of going kaboom. Make them squishy, and you'll have to flank carefully or risk being focused.

Make Pioneers more squishy (armor, since apparently, the coh2 design philosophy is keep all HP levels standard), problem fixed.

The flamethrower SHOULD be a deadly weapon. Its costing you 60 muns, it better damn do what's advertising, you also always run the risk of going kaboom. Make them squishy, and you'll have to flank carefully or risk being focused.

Yeah this exactly it. You no longer have to be careful with flamers because they have so much health. You dont have to find the best shot blocking route and get them in nice and close at the point you expose them to fire. You can march right down the center and it does the job.

I don't know how much armour plays a factor, if its literally reduces the damage done by the mulitple, but would be great to test it with Pioneers and Engineers at 0.85 armour.

Make Pioneers more squishy (armor, since apparently, the coh2 design philosophy is keep all HP levels standard), problem fixed.

The flamethrower SHOULD be a deadly weapon. Its costing you 60 muns, it better damn do what's advertising, you also always run the risk of going kaboom. Make them squishy, and you'll have to flank carefully or risk being focused.

This exactly. In vCoH, there are few things more frightening than to get a combo of riflemen and a flame engi (or corresponding Wehrmacht-troops) on a good flank.

Edit:
This terror being possible without performing a good flank is just silly :/

I agree with Stephen, Pios/Engies can engage infantry way too long, even Pios without Flamers are a problem because they can stall against Conscripts for an extremely long time.

It's also pretty bad fighting against Soviets because Conscripts can reinforce flamer Engineers in the field, so even if someone kills 3 of my Engineers, I can just transfer 3 of my Conscripts. Then when they kill another, I transfer another Conscript. Then I can retreat the Conscripts and by that time another Conscript squad has usually arrived.

+1 to this I would like to see less HP on all engineers & the price drop on combat engineers. Like so many things, this wasn't broken in vcoh so I don't know why they felt the need to fix it.

I agree with CyberianK that flame throwers should be specialist weapons with a specific role rather than an all purpose anti-inf solution.

I'll like to add that flamethrowers in general do way too many crits on retreating troops. It's easy for a flamethrower halftrack to just chase a full health squad back to base and kill it.

The problem will still arise in 2 squads vs 2 squads. If in cover: you will die from the flamethrower, if out of cover, the other squad will get you.

But thats exactly whats supposed to happen

Bring your own flamer, and if u dont play a faction with one, bring whatever advantage you have...