Timing of tanks

This is not a topic about units beeing op or beeing to strong, it is rather about the time they hit the battlefield, so I put it here.

I'm playing Sovjet and Ostheer since release in 2vs2 and up, after addon I first tried to play USF, at the moment I'm experimenting with OKW and I wondered about certain timings.

If you have a look at Ostheer and Sovjets you'll see that the first PZIV and the first T34 hit the battlefiel roughly at the same time if you subtract the different starting fuel values. PZIV between 215 and 240 fuel, depending on the amount of tech buildings you build. T34 between 210 and 270 fuel, depending on the choices you make going T1 or T2 and affording grenades or not. A T70 can come out at 180 fuel if you going directly for it, so it can have a time window of 35 or more fuel to put pressure on your opponent. This mechanic seems logical to me.

As I played a 3vs3 with OKW yesterday I already had a JagdpanzerIV out as I saw the first T34 coming and I owned it because of range, damage and a nice high reverse speed as it was going for me. I wondered why I already had this tankkiller at the same time, so I did the math.

If you subtract the starting fuel and take into account OKW gets only 66% fuel the JagdpanzerIV comes at 202,5 fuel. Wow this is early for a dedicated tank killer. In 1vs1 it may come later because you own a lower proportion of the map, but in 2vs2 and up it comes pretty fast.

If you go straight for the mechanical truck instead of the medical truck you can even have a Puma out at 105 fuel. Thats long before the first T70 or Stuart hits the field. And you can do it even faster if you activate the 4 munition for 1 fuel ability on the truck. Isn't it a wrong game mechanic to allow a hard counter to be available long before the unit that gets countered comes out? The Puma with its range, damage and mobility really owns small tanks. The Puma isn't to good on itself but it leaves absolutely no time window for the small tanks.

On the other side Shermans seem to come very late, depending on your choices between 235 and 380 fuel. While you can skip grenades beeing a Sovjet and going for T2->T3, you can't ignore the infantry upgrades and the medic truck beeing USF so you will easily reach something about 280 fuel before you get the first Sherman. At this time even Panthers aren't that far. Isn't this too late for a medium tank?

Feel free to post your opinion.

Puma comes a little too early imo. Interesting calculations behind the timings though. good job. i am going to have to think about this

USA and soviets generally have an idiotic faction design.

The Jadgpanzer does come out early, but it also does nothing vs infantry. If a P4 came out that early, Houston, we would have a problem.

USA and soviets generally have an idiotic faction design.

I believe this is the core of Allied problems right now.

I calculated like this: OKW has 40 starting fuel, with this you can build the mechanical truck. Because of the 33% fuel reduction you need the time other factions need to collect 105 fuel for the 70 fuel a puma costs. Of course the ability of the truck can shorten this time to something about roughly 90-95 fuel I would say. Fuel caches are no argument in 2vs2 and up, because Ostheer builds them for OKW. So you own small tanks and you can even have a pair of Pumas when first T34 comes out. I would bet the Pumas stay on top in this matchup. But especially for the small tanks it would be sad if you just can't play them anymore.

The Jadgpanzer does come out early, but it also does nothing vs infantry. If a P4 came out that early, Houston, we would have a problem.

Although I think Puma is the bigger timing problem: If you have look at SU-85 it clearly comes later. Shouldn't this be similar?

Gawain, may you also do the fuel timing for the Luchs? THanks

A T70 can come out at 150 fuel if you going directly for it, so it can have a time window of 60 or more fuel to put pressure on your opponent.

T3 costs 120fu.
T-70 costs 70.

120+70=190

You might want to recount a thing or two in your posts and correct it.

Well for US it doesn't feel that the sherman comes that late because you only have to tech LT and you can go straight for major and since you get a free combat unit, teching doesn't even slow down your infantry aggression off course if you get light vehicles your sherman gets pushed back a bit.

So that's 50 LT plus 90 major plus the sherman cost 110 (I think) so 250 not that different from p4 or T34, with doctrines you can skip base upgrades by getting LMG on para or with infantry company, grenades are good but its not impossible to play without them and the most important grenade in my opinion AT nade is unlocked with vet so np, you do need the ambulance before the tank but that's a minor setback.

The puma does seem to come really early but so does the US Halftrack and I believe that's the main reason for the puma timing.

The Soviets T-70 coming late seems to be more a Tier system design flaw by having both light and medium armor in same Tier, this works for OKW having panzer II and Panther because of the huge fuel cost difference between them 55 to 175 and with 66% income,but T-70 and T34 is a mere 30 fuel difference with full income, in order to get an appropriate timing on T-70 the T-34 would come too early.

I actually suggest a crazy idea in another thread to switch T-34 with SU-76 making T3 all about light vehicles and making soviet T4 similar to US T4, I though about keeping the early game the same but making T4 unlocked only after you got 2 tech buildings up.

So you would open with T1 or T2 and unlock T3 tech again and unlock T4 this would mean obvious cost adjustments, you could go T1 T2 and straight T4 for medium armor or first get T1 T3 for light vehicles and then T4 for medium armor.

These are just my thoughts feel free to comment and point out anything I missed or not getting right

Of course ;-) Luchs comes out at about the equivalent of 195 fuel if you go from mechanical or medical truck directly to flack truck. With the munition to fuel ability of the mechanical truck you can do it a little bit faster. Overall a little bit later than a T70 can come out.

T3 costs 120fu.
T-70 costs 70.

120+70=190

You might want to recount a thing or two in your posts and correct it.

Thanks, yes I made a mistake here. 180 would be correct, because you can build T1, then you would have 10 fuel left of you starting fuel. Still there is a time window for the small tanks.

Well for US it doesn't feel that the sherman comes that late because you only have to tech LT and you can go straight for major and since you get a free combat unit, teching doesn't even slow down your infantry aggression off course if you get light vehicles your sherman gets pushed back a bit.

So that's 50 LT plus 90 major plus the sherman cost 110 (I think) so 250 not that different from p4 or T34, with doctrines you can skip base upgrades by getting LMG on para or with infantry company, grenades are good but its not impossible to play without them and the most important grenade in my opinion AT nade is unlocked with vet so np, you do need the ambulance before the tank but that's a minor setback.

The puma does seem to come really early but so does the US Halftrack and I believe that's the main reason for the puma timing.

The Soviets T-70 coming late seems to be more a Tier system design flaw by having both light and medium armor in same Tier, this works for OKW having panzer II and Panther because of the huge fuel cost difference between them 55 to 175 and with 66% income,but T-70 and T34 is a mere 30 fuel difference with full income, in order to get an appropriate timing on T-70 the T-34 would come too early.

I actually suggest a crazy idea in another thread to switch T-34 with SU-76 making T3 all about light vehicles and making soviet T4 similar to US T4, I though about keeping the early game the same but making T4 unlocked only after you got 2 tech buildings up.

So you would open with T1 or T2 and unlock T3 tech again and unlock T4 this would mean obvious cost adjustments, you could go T1 T2 and straight T4 for medium armor or first get T1 T3 for light vehicles and then T4 for medium armor.

These are just my thoughts feel free to comment and point out anything I missed or not getting right

Sovjet starts with 50 fuel, US only with 15. I already subtracted this values from the complete fuel costs to make it compareable.

Interesting thoughts about your suggestion of switching tanks.

I actually suggest a crazy idea in another thread to switch T-34 with SU-76 making T3 all about light vehicles and making soviet T4 similar to US T4, I though about keeping the early game the same but making T4 unlocked only after you got 2 tech buildings up.

I made a similar suggestion some time ago, with the difference that you could still go straight to t4 after t1 or t2, but t3 would be only half the fuel cost of t4, like motorpool was in coh1.

It seems that many would rather switch su-76 with t70 instead, which I guess wouldn´t be that bad either. But something has to be done to make t3 or t4 more attractive compared to just waiting for call-ins.

Gawain, may you also do the fuel timing for the Luchs? THanks

luchs timing is about 8:30-9:00 on most 2v2 maps assuming you control atleast half the map. controlling 2 fuels lowers the time to around 8:00.

this is assuming you spend your fuel as soon as you have enough (which you should be doing)

The timing of the heavies is too early.
If you postponed them to let's say 25 CP (that's too much probably but you get the point), there is a window for t3 and t4, plus heavies in the late game.

But indeed, a puma on 5min isn't that enjoyable..

The timing of the heavies is too early.
If you postponed them to let's say 25 CP (that's too much probably but you get the point), there is a window for t3 and t4, plus heavies in the late game.

But indeed, a puma on 5min isn't that enjoyable..

you can get a panzer4 or t34 at around around 9-11 minutes depending on when and how many caches you build. this is a huge opportunity to punish players that are saving for call ins and to completely push them off the map and kill their infantry in their base.

you can get a panzer4 or t34 at around around 9-11 minutes depending on when and how many caches you build. this is a huge opportunity to punish players that are saving for call ins and to completely push them off the map and kill their infantry in their base.

Players have proved many times that few mines and a pair of AT guns+maybe some infantry AT squad is enough to hold off meds until heavies arrive, this is especially easy for axis which have superior AT and are fighting weaker armor, pretty much only sherman on allied side is truly effective medium.

currently no one usually is prepared at the 9 minute mark for a panzer4 to come rolling down their flank.
in any case thats why you do a coordinated attack instead of just blindly charging in with your tank. probe with infantry and use them to clear the antitank guns, or flank with the tank so it can just circle strafe the at gun while your infantry move in. ive lost a few times to a fast sherman or t34 because their AI capabilities are pretty strong, and if they get a few lucky shots off its devastating. its not 100% guaranteed to work but it is still a very very viable strategy.

edit: what im trying to say is you have to use the shock value of the mediums to maximum effect. in a drawn out engagement they are at a serious disadvantage because players will be have already seen them and have at positions set up. however the first strike is the most important and often the most devastating, because there will not be as much AT to counter it.

Most players seem to agree that tank timing isn't that great worked out at the moment. Puma comes way too early, small tanks in comparison too late. Shouldn't the Luchs, Stuart and T70 be available before the Puma? Heavy Tank Call-ins come a little bit too early. Most of this timing problems would be solvable simply by reorganizing only a few off the Tier units and adjusting the Tier fuel costs as some off you suggested. CP cost for Heavy Call-Ins could be simply raised. I wonder why relic employes don't consider this by themselves.

I mostly play 1vs1 and I don't think that a Puma comes too early because it is the only thing that helps vs ami AA HT, Greyhound and M3 with flamers (when it is good managed it can easily outmaneuver raketenwerfer). With a RAK, you can maybe scare them away but with a Puma you can actually kill them.

1vs1 is usually about CALLins. In your fuel calculation, you should not forget that Allies have solid CALLins, while OKW has nothing (Elite Armor doesn't come out of the box and you need to spend 210 fuel on them). The Puma is the only thing that keeps you alive in 1vs1 until you save fuel for heavier armor.

As Soviet, who techs to t3 when he/she can go T34 CALLin. As US Force, you usually go to Easy 8 which is an absolute allrounder.