USF Cost of Lieutenant vs effectiveness

i would rate both the sp and pg at 280 mp. sure these guys have some decent mid range firepower. but technically they are frail as fuck and shooting rifle units at midrange is a good way to lose the mp war.

the only way they become cost effective is short range and they lack the durability and tools like smoke to get into such a position.

Rifle reinforce is lesser than gren,and far lesser than pzgren and they are rarely wiped without lucky rifle nade.

Reinforcing 3 grens cost 90mp.
Reinforcing 4 rifles cost 112 if I remember good.
Reinforcing 3 pgrens cost 120.
Cheapest squad reinforces for cheapest amount.
Medium costing squad reinforces for medium amount.
Most expensive squad reinforces for most.

Basic ground school math applies and checks.

the only way they become cost effective is short range and they lack the durability and tools like smoke to get into such a position.

No, they become cost effective at medium range, which is their most effective range by design.
As long as you will believe them to be axis shocks, you will keep failing, because they are not.

^That. People really need to learn to play with PGrens. Besides, they're a lot cheaper than Shocks (both initial unit cost as reinforcing cost, cause a Shock squad has more models), so don't expect them to perform the same.

Axis players cry when they cant use their overpowering units effectively.

I guess an ifrantry unit that can snipe support weapons from the front is "ok"

and baseline infantry with shreks that can counter their own counter

But when my jackson cant penetrate a vet panther after 4 shots...

Axis players say learn to flank..

So im going to give u the same "advice"

Learn how to position ur overperforming units

Ad did i ever say learn to flank to u,or ever oppose jackson /at gun penetration buff?
I only want my faction to be an enjoyable exp.Its not.

I would take ur 'advice' ,but ost doesn't have any overperforming units save stuge which i don't have.So better keep ur advice for ur usf and okw buddies.

Reinforcing 3 grens cost 90mp.
Reinforcing 4 rifles cost 112 if I remember good.
Reinforcing 3 pgrens cost 120.
Cheapest squad reinforces for cheapest amount.
Medium costing squad reinforces for medium amount.
Most expensive squad reinforces for most.

Basic ground school math applies and checks.



No, they become cost effective at medium range, which is their most effective range by design.
As long as you will believe them to be axis shocks, you will keep failing, because they are not.

Since all models are 80 hp wehr lose models far faster in blob fights(which are mainly the only type of inf fight going on right now) and also wipe faster.

Cost effective my ass,titoff.42 reinforce.Why don't you use them in a few games and teach us?Ur apparently a good ost player.
I don't believe them to be shocks,i believe them to be shit.And before u try ur lame excuses-range,cover,balah blah.Show me tourney matches or pro replays employing panzergrenadiers in a major way.Fine.i'm noob.Are they noob too?Why aren't they using it?Ofcourse they know its shit for its cost.Did anyone even build a single pzgren squad for anything than AT in the last tourney?
The failing is in ur self-denial,pathetic arrogance and fleeing when confronted with hard reality and not ur stats which u love so much.What good are ur stats when noone bothers using the unit?Like i said acc to you i'm noob?Are all the top players noobs?Prove me wrong.
Play ost ,pwn them pzgrens at 'mid range'.Teach us mighty titoff.Coz apparently even the top dogs want nothing to do with 'midrange master' papergrens.

^That. People really need to learn to play with PGrens. Besides, they're a lot cheaper than Shocks (both initial unit cost as reinforcing cost, cause a Shock squad has more models), so don't expect them to perform the same.

Fine,i'm noob.I needto learn.What about pros.they need learning?
They are not cheaper 'a lot' -only 50 less.Brutal 42 mp reinforce.4 man squad that loses its dps 25% per model lost.Gets wiped often.no smoke.
And a pathetic .87 recieved accuracy that was actually renerfed for some reason a few patches back.whats that 1 in 10 shots dodged?Take ur recieved accuracy and stuff it up ur backside.Compared to 1.5 armor.
End the farce once and for all,remove recieved accuracy and remove the units as an AI infantry altogether,whats the point ,nobody bothers with it.Make it dedicated tankbuster.
Enough with the condescending pity towards this shit,lets just make reality what is reality.Wehr to have one infantry only -grenadiers.No need for fake infantry to give appearances.

Since all models are 80 hp wehr lose models far faster in blob fights(which are mainly the only type of inf fight going on right now) and also wipe faster.

BEEEEP
Wrong again.
Models have this thing called received accuracy modifier, which is greater for axis infantry.
That means grens and pgrens models have MORE effective hp per model then rifles.

And if you're in a blob fights, sorry, I don't discuss 4v4 lolfests.

Cost effective my ass,titoff.42 reinforce.Why don't you use them in a few games and teach us?Ur apparently a good ost player.
I don't believe them to be shocks,i believe them to be shit.And before u try ur lame excuses-range,cover,balah blah.Show me tourney matches or pro replays employing panzergrenadiers in a major way.

Watch some Cruzzis games. Some Siberians games as well. Hell, watch what Jesulin does when he gets them.

The failing is in ur self-denial,pathetic arrogance and fleeing when confronted with hard reality and not ur stats which u love so much.What good are ur stats when noone bothers using the unit?Like i said acc to you i'm noob?Are all the top players noobs?Prove me wrong.

Just did in the line above.

Play ost ,pwn them pzgrens at 'mid range'.Teach us mighty titoff.Coz apparently even the top dogs want nothing to do with 'midrange master' papergrens.

What if I told you they are not a no brainer unit and are map dependent? You can't use every unit on every map against every opponent in every condition(doesn't include OKW). When I'm getting them I usually get just a single one and sit them next to LMG grens. Long distance fight? Grens will triumph. They want to charge you? pgrens will shred them.

While wehr isn't in the best spot at the moment(again, because of OKW who takes a dump at whole balance, explained that to you in the other thread back then), every time you use their units believing they can completely independently work, you fail. Wehr is designed so you always need to support all units, no exceptions, that goes for pgrens as well.

YOu don't have an argument so you bring up obers at every chance?Ost has simply NO answer ,deal with it.
.83 with 6 men ..yes great.Then how do you explain kind sir panzergrenadier reinforce at 42 MP?

340 /4/2 = 42.5. So panzergrenadiers reinforce should be 43*.

Yes, i compare paras with obersoldaten, because this is counterparts. Deal with it.

Looks like you have no arguments just complaining about allies ''being OP''.

Unfortunately, crap and biased design if you ask me...

But no one asking you. Can tell same about soviets.

340 /4/2 = 42.5. So panzergrenadiers reinforce should be 43*.

Yes, i compare paras with obersoldaten, because this is counterparts. Deal with it.

Looks like you have no arguments just complaining about allies ''being OP''.

I didn't say allies OP at all.Just ost UP.And katitof's beloved stats prove i'm right.But go ahead,feel good abt urself beating ost,u go back to whining like a bitch when ur dose is applied to u by OPKW.

I didn't say allies OP at all.Just ost UP.And katitof's beloved stats prove i'm right.But go ahead,feel good abt urself beating ost,u go back to whining like a bitch when ur dose is applied to u by USF.

Fixed for you.

BEEEEP
Wrong again.
Models have this thing called received accuracy modifier, which is greater for axis infantry.
That means grens and pgrens models have MORE effective hp per model then rifles.

And if you're in a blob fights, sorry, I don't discuss 4v4 lolfests.


Watch some Cruzzis games. Some Siberians games as well. Hell, watch what Jesulin does when he gets them.



Just did in the line above.


What if I told you they are not a no brainer unit and are map dependent? You can't use every unit on every map against every opponent in every condition(doesn't include OKW). When I'm getting them I usually get just a single one and sit them next to LMG grens. Long distance fight? Grens will triumph. They want to charge you? pgrens will shred them.

While wehr isn't in the best spot at the moment(again, because of OKW who takes a dump at whole balance, explained that to you in the other thread back then), every time you use their units believing they can completely independently work, you fail. Wehr is designed so you always need to support all units, no exceptions, that goes for pgrens as well.

And what is the great 'recieved accuracy modifier' sir katitof?
.93 - 7% .wow.OP.NERF needed.Well professor,if u removed it today i would hardly notice.A recent addition and a fairly useless one at that before vet 2 atleast.
.87 - whats that ?a little more than 1 in 10 shots?Truly powerful i'm sure.for a 42 reinforce 340 mp,4 man i'm sure it makes them immortal.
Thats the thing,they never really bother getting them much as AI.watched the whole tourney for pzgren play...bad luck me.


All those fancy methods and yet we rarely if ever see it ingame from anyone.So i bought a 340 mp unit to babysit by mg or harass cappers.Buy 1 unit?This is what it has come down to?
Sovs can use multiple shocks as frontline inf with cons
USf rifles and para.
OKW volks and obers.

Yet wehr -its single pzgren spends its time hiding behind grens or babysitting mgs.Optimal performance no doubt.

Fixed for you.

Well i'm not the one making literally scores of threads on OKW.I make a few ost threads occasionally ,but man -compared to okw whining ,i'm a second grader.All i ever said is ostheer underperforming with scores of useless units,and no matter how many times how many of u call me noob and l2p ,i'm not gonna change that..coz i played coh for a long time..and playing ost regularly..classic wehr factions never felt this predictable,boring,and stagnant/weak.
I have waited 6 months really for a patch to change something -but nothing does.I was going grens into tiger 6 months ago-doing the same.Now with even more units nerfed,pzgren renerfed,pak given gift,gren lmg nerfed.Should have left all ago-my friends did,but addiction is hard.
So go ahead call me noob,ur disdain is nothing compared to the disappointment i get every patch.

No, they become cost effective at medium range, which is their most effective range by design.
As long as you will believe them to be axis shocks, you will keep failing, because they are not.

No they dont , as i said before they have nice dps. but rifle squads (and im not talking rifleman im talking all riflesquads volks scrips fusiliers etc) can have twice the hp for mp and that dps is going to safe them. only when they are point blank and do triple the damage of the rifle squad they become cost effective.

...

Wasn't RA moved to 0.8 from 0.87 on several elite axis units when they removed armor?

Comparison:
Vet0 PG > 0.8 = 1.25 Armor
Vet2 PG > 0.568 = 1.76 Armor

IF it was 0.87
Vet0 PG > 0.87 = 1.15 Armor
Vet2 PG > 0.617 = 1.62 Armor

Armor for comparison since you keep crying about Shocktroops. If anything, most vcoh2 units needs a revamp of veterancy (specially vet1). For PG you could just make them scale a bit better between vet1 and vet2, splitting veterancy bonuses. That's it, no more no less.

I think I'll go start a thread complaining that the US is the only faction that doesn't get CP advance and XP for teching

Can we be just a tad realistic here?
OH, right now, is perhaps at its weakest since release. This is borne out by statistics, common sense, and heck, actually just playing all factions... That does not mean its unplayable, just that its usually not enjoyable, as you are effectively boxed into 2-3 builds and it will still generally be an uphill battle, especially against US, where the fragility of OH is most in evidence. One mistake can unhinge your entire composition and seal the deal for OH, something that does not apply to the same extent for any other faction.

No they dont , as i said before they have nice dps. but rifle squads (and im not talking rifleman im talking all riflesquads volks scrips fusiliers etc) can have twice the hp for mp and that dps is going to safe them. only when they are point blank and do triple the damage of the rifle squad they become cost effective.

This is complete Bullshit

Ive have used pGrens enough to confirm that they beat rifles at med range.

Jaigen where is the "im so pro no flaws skilled replay" we are all dying to see

Hello, i am just n00b whiner who playing only ostheer, do not care about balance at all, i am never played USF and just want allies to be nerfed and axis buffed.

Fixed it for you. This isn't constructive discussion when people like you< who do not care about balance at all whining and butthurting hard about something. ''hrr i can't stop paras as ost, i am going forums to cry allies is OP hrr''. (clear bullsh*t).

P.S. Peter Qumsieh (Relic balance designer) at last stream said that the panzergrernadiers is overperfoming for their cost. Deal with it.

This is complete Bullshit

Ive have used pGrens enough to confirm that they beat rifles at med range.

Jaigen where is the "im so pro no flaws skilled replay" we are all dying to see

Oh ffs are you stupid? i didnt say they pg or sp could not defeat rifles at midrange they cannot do so cost effectively. you put 2 rifles like volks or scripts against every single pg or in the case of grens or rifleman (who are more expensive but has way better dps) you simply curb stomp them simply because you have far more hp on your side for mp then the sp or pg. so the only way to be cost effective is close range and they are not suited for that.

Shocks on the other hand are more durable , cheaper (costing slightly more then a single gren) and have the tools to get close to enemy in form of smoke. because of all this you sometimes see 1vs1 games with 3 shocks. okw however uses volks + obers and ost uses pure gren spam simply because how bad sp and pg's are.

And if you disagree with simple match show me a fucking replay where you use 2-3 pg's/sp successfully.