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russian armor

Reduce cost of BARS and Bazookas?

3 Oct 2014, 10:28 AM
#81
avatar of schnuersi

Posts: 56

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Sep 2014, 07:22 AMvarunax
They have almost no differences in performance irl. Around 600 RPM for both weapons and 20 round mag. The FG42 was just designed better and more expensive but that's about all.


The theoretical ROF is usually no indicator on the actual combat effectiveness of a weapon.

The BAR and the FG42 are extremly different pieces of kit and are hardly comparable. Depending on situation one is better than the other.
The BARs ROF is significantly lower than that of the FG42. The A2 version of the BAR wich is the one widely used during WW2 cycles with less than 500 RPM. Combined with its high weight of allmost 9 kg it made the gun very controllabe in automatic fire. The BAR as such also is very accurate since its more of a full auto rifle than an LMG.

The FG42 has a ROF in the 700-800 RPM range. Combined with its low weight ~5 kg and the powerfull ammo its allmost uncontrollable in full auto. Standing unsupported its difficult to keep short, controlled bursts on target. The low mass of the gun combined with the high ROF will make it heat up quickly. Its not suited for sustained fire. Much less than the BAR. In single shots the FG42 is quite accurate.

The low weight and the faster realoding due to better ergonomics make the FG42 more mobile and a better assault weapon though.
The FG42 is more of a full power assault rifle than an LMG.


jump backJump back to quoted post30 Sep 2014, 07:22 AMvarunax
It's like comparing an AK47/M16.


Wich are again two completly different weapons wich are designed with completly different doctrines and concepts in mind.
To put it short and blunt the AK47 is a high powered, glorified SMG wich is cheap and easy to produce and maintain.
The M16 is a highly accurate, lightweight, small caliber rifle.

I think it would be best if they adjusted the BAR in cost and effectiveness. A dual BAR rifle squad should overwelm a MG42 armed Grenadier spuad at short range but loose at long range. The BAR should perform more like something between G43 and StG. Two BARs should be more expensive than on MG42 upgrade but one should be cheaper. About 2/3 at max.

The Bazookas are currently a joke. No doubt. I am ok with the fact that they are ineffective against heavy armor. So rifles can only play a supporting role in this case. But they should reliably hit and kill light vehicles and light armor. I have seen Kübels getting hit two times by Bazookas and survive. Combined with the fact that the accuracy of the Bazookas is atrocious, so two hits are likely a two digit number of shots, that can't be right.
Same method as with BAR pricing. One is cheaper than a Schreck 1/2 - 2/3 and two are more expensive. The penetration can stay the same but the accuracy should go up.

I also think the Schrek is too accurate. The upgrade of the Volks is a plain buff IMHO. It increases the output of the squad in any way. The Schreck is better against infantry and support weapons than the rifle it replaces is. The Schreck has a very bad tendency to snipe soldiers or kill several at once with its splash. Even more so if the using squad gains vet.
It reminds me of the CoH1 PE Schreck blob. Who would fire a alpha stike of 8-10 rockets and kill half of you infantry by doing so. This was rebalanced and taken out for a reason.
The Schreck should only be able to hit soldiers at short range. About SMG short. At medium it shoudl be able to hit support weapon teams with its splash. At long it should have a 1/2 - 2/3 hit ratio against medium tank sized targets. This of course improves by closing in.
4 Oct 2014, 20:24 PM
#82
avatar of varunax

Posts: 210



The theoretical ROF is usually no indicator on the actual combat effectiveness of a weapon.

The BAR and the FG42 are extremly different pieces of kit and are hardly comparable. Depending on situation one is better than the other.
The BARs ROF is significantly lower than that of the FG42. The A2 version of the BAR wich is the one widely used during WW2 cycles with less than 500 RPM. Combined with its high weight of allmost 9 kg it made the gun very controllabe in automatic fire. The BAR as such also is very accurate since its more of a full auto rifle than an LMG.


I dunno why people always want to get so technical in these discussions. These arguments about guns is an age old debate, that's my entire point dude. Nobody cares if the BAR is better than the FG42 or if the FG42 is better irl. And btw, you're talking about the FG42-1 that has a 900 RPM. The FG42-2 has only about 600 RPM. BARS shot at around 400~650 RPM depending on the selectable firing mode.

In this game, falschimjager are seen more common with the FG42 than rifles with BARs. Does that make any sense? IRL the BAR was the most common weapon on the battlefield and the FG42 was nearly non-existent. Historically accurate? No. I dunno how people say the FG42 was more superior when it was BARELY even produced and used. It's like saying the Super Pershing was the best tank of WW2 except only 1 was EVER used.

Anyway, this game sucks balls. Doesn't matter if you want BARS/bazooka's to be more accurate or cheaper. The Relic balance team is ran by 1 dumb ass scrub that barely knows how to play the game and wants the game balanced his way. That's all it amounts to. I mean, who the hell asked for a kubel buff and half these changes? That's the problem with relic. They come out with a huge stupid change every time when top players ask for like 3 units to be changed.
4 Oct 2014, 20:54 PM
#83
avatar of schnuersi

Posts: 56

I dunno why people always want to get so technical in these discussions. These arguments about guns is an age old debate, that's my entire point dude. Nobody cares if the BAR is better than the FG42 or if the FG42 is better irl.


If specs are thrown around these should be at least accurate.
From my point is not about what is better since you are right with it being a moot discusion.
My point is these guns in reality are so vastly different they are more or less uncomparable. Apples and oranges. Both fruit but not the same.

And btw, you're talking about the FG42-1 that has a 900 RPM. The FG42-2 has only about 600 RPM. BARS shot at around 400~650 RPM depending on the selectable firing mode.


There is no such thing as an FG42-1 and FG42-2.
After being designed by Rheinmetall the production went to Krieghoff. These reworked and improved the gun. It has no different designation. Its allways called FG42. Somtimes early and late model are used to differentiate nowadays.
The original Rheinmetall design cycles ~900 rpm. The late model cycles between 600-750 rpm. Depending on gas valve setting, state of the gun and ammo used.
600 rpm as the lowest ROF is still very fast for a 5 kg gun shooting ammo with a muzzle energy in the 4 kJ range.

The BAR was allmost allways used at its lowest ROF. For better controlability. With engaged rate reducer the M1918A2 cyles ~450 rpm.

Doesn't matter if you want BARS/bazooka's to be more accurate or cheaper.


I don't want anything. IMHO its just a nice idea. Also the whole point of forums is to share ideas and opinions.

The Relic balance team is ran by 1 dumb ass scrub that barely knows how to play the game and wants the game balanced his way.


You should be glad the "scrub" plays the game at all. This is not common. Its also not required that you are involved or actually use the product you are suppose to work on. Allmost nobody does. Not in the gaming or any other industry.
Also if its really only one guy its a wonder they manage to patch and rebalance at all. An 8 hour work day is really short if you have to do everything by yourself. Most of the time will be spend on meetings, aswering the telefone and mails. Gathering information and analysing them also takes enormous amounts of time.

That's the problem with relic. They come out with a huge stupid change every time when top players ask for like 3 units to be changed.


You don't play many other games, do you? Relic still is one of the best developers out there. The vast majority is far worse. They might not be perfect but at least they keep trying.
4 Oct 2014, 21:13 PM
#84
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4928

Which are again two completly different weapons wich are designed with completly different doctrines and concepts in mind.
To put it short and blunt the AK47 is a high powered, glorified SMG wich is cheap and easy to produce and maintain.
The M16 is a highly accurate, lightweight, small caliber rifle.


Actually the M16's bullet is longer than the AK-47's, and the AKM's is smaller than the M16's in every dimension, 5.45×39mm vs 5.56×45mm.
4 Oct 2014, 21:32 PM
#85
avatar of varunax

Posts: 210

You don't play many other games, do you? Relic still is one of the best developers out there. The vast majority is far worse. They might not be perfect but at least they keep trying.


Yeah, I do. That's why I know relic's balance team is shit.
4 Oct 2014, 22:33 PM
#86
avatar of Leepriest

Posts: 179



Yeah, I do. That's why I know relic's balance team is shit.


Balance team? Pquimseh and a few cleaning ladies at Relic. :snfPeter:
4 Oct 2014, 23:43 PM
#87
avatar of JimmyC7A1

Posts: 94

I think zooks are fine, a pen or dmg buff would be nice but BARs are absolute garbage. I just rely on my upgraded paras for AI.
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