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russian armor

Heavy tanks - easy use

28 Sep 2014, 10:18 AM
#41
avatar of pigsoup
Patrion 14

Posts: 4301 | Subs: 2

Expanding on what I said earlier, fuel upkeep shouldn't effect medium or light tanks. I feel there should be 3 stages of fuel upkeep:

Medium-Heavy:
A moderate penalty for advantaged-but-not-quite-heavy tanks. These include the Kliment Voroshilov and Panther tanks.

Heavy:
A hefty penalty for the standard heavy tanks, this prevents you from fielding too many and helps keep inferior medium tanks relevant by allowing the enemy to replace losses or expand before you call in more heavies.

Super-Heavy:
The highest penalty for the massive Jagdtiger and Tiger II, the penalty on these units will make it difficult to get even a Luchs. Use them wisely.



i dont think having a little fuel upkeep for light vehicles and medium vehicles would hurt.

like 0-1 fuel/min penalty for each light vehicles, 1-2f/m for light tanks, 2-3f/m for medium, 6-7f/m for heavies, and ~10f/m for jagd, isu, kt...
28 Sep 2014, 11:23 AM
#42
avatar of Kreatiir

Posts: 2819

Fuel penalty for light vehicles is a terrible idea, no one will go for a scoutcar if that delays your p4..
28 Sep 2014, 12:35 PM
#43
avatar of pigsoup
Patrion 14

Posts: 4301 | Subs: 2

Fuel penalty for light vehicles is a terrible idea, no one will go for a scoutcar if that delays your p4..


i would if there are snipers, penals and/or m3 are lurking about. sure may be the opportunity cost for going the armoured car would be bigger, but that would be the case for getting all other vehicles too.

with the same logic as the one you stated, why would you go for p4 when it will delay your tiger? (unless you think medium tanks shouldn't have fuel upkeeps too, then we'll just agree to disagree).

28 Sep 2014, 17:23 PM
#44
avatar of Omega_Warrior

Posts: 2561

The fuel upkeep for light vehicles would ideally be barely noticable if not completely non existing. For mediums I would say 3-4 would equal the same as heavy. Super heavies would be around 1.5 upkeep of normal heavies.

The idea is that now players who rush heavies would have to settle for medium tank or light support rather then just wait for another heavy, although that option would still be open for them but take longer.

Light tanks might actually see some more use as well after normal tanks arrive since they won't hurt the players income as hard. Relic would still have to be careful not to introduce some sort of Stuart spam meta though, so I minor upkeep might be necessary.

The best thing about fuel upkeep is that it would help balance the game across all game modes especially team games. Reducing the victory by "critical mass" and focusing play on tactical use of units rather then the hording of resources til you have a unbeatable army.
28 Sep 2014, 17:56 PM
#45
avatar of BÖSE VOGEL

Posts: 4

Heavies need more realistic acceleration etc. this will make players think more about how to position them.
Also will help to point out speed differences between:

Tiger
King Tiger
IS 2
etc.

It should be no problem they have auto fire. The problem should more be how to position them, as you you are allowed to park a tiger backwards in a house the rear armour component has been made obsolete.

Now rear armour is quite strong.

The problem with the whole game is that also Maps are poorly designed and the way how Heavies despite a lower speed can crush more objects.

I keep saying it we need a major rework to increase playability and realism

28 Sep 2014, 18:41 PM
#46
avatar of dakta

Posts: 15

Heavies need more realistic acceleration etc. this will make players think more about how to position them.
Also will help to point out speed differences between:

Tiger
King Tiger
IS 2
etc.

It should be no problem they have auto fire. The problem should more be how to position them, as you you are allowed to park a tiger backwards in a house the rear armour component has been made obsolete.

Now rear armour is quite strong.

The problem with the whole game is that also Maps are poorly designed and the way how Heavies despite a lower speed can crush more objects.

I keep saying it we need a major rework to increase playability and realism


Realism is the worst thing you can say, if you wanted real war, a match should last for days even months, troops would be in trenches most of the time shooting at the air, and suddently and airstrike would swoop in and send them running away. Realism has no place here, what we want is fun gameplay.

And then look its a game and its not a game making millions, its a game that luckily is still alive, so small changes can happen, a full rework to the maps will not.

Be realistic :)
28 Sep 2014, 18:45 PM
#47
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3602 | Subs: 1

fuel Upkeek is a terribly bad Idea...

It would just change the meta to Inf spam AT... Oh wait, it already exists. There are many ways to delay even more heavy call-in, just add them 2 or 3 CP more to be available.

Personally I don't see any problem having Heavy tanks with strong front armor and really weak side and rear one. I mean, they should be weak as medium tanks are.

My vision is heavy tanks share the same design issue with the Kubel - you can't flank them, it makes you bleed MP for no cost.

Weaker they side / rear armor + make repair cost fuel for Heavy tanks should be enough to mitigate their lack of weakness.
Vaz
28 Sep 2014, 18:45 PM
#48
avatar of Vaz

Posts: 1158

I would really like to see changes to speed an acceleration. Heavies are really fast right now. The only one that should really be fast is the panther.
28 Sep 2014, 19:47 PM
#49
avatar of daspoulos

Posts: 1116 | Subs: 1

Permanently Banned
Honestly a lot of these ideas are bad, the only unit I'd say has a problem is jagdtiger. The suggestions here to try to nerfs is2 and tigers is laughable.
29 Sep 2014, 18:33 PM
#50
avatar of kafrion

Posts: 371

i think that if howies become more accessible (cheaper and less cp ) and effective at their job we will escape the heavy tank maddness .
29 Sep 2014, 20:16 PM
#51
avatar of NinjaWJ

Posts: 2070

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Sep 2014, 17:37 PMwongtp
nope, heavies are as good as they are, no need for radical changes.

real problem are weak allied AT and stupidly thick KT frontal armour. jadgtiger is stupid but essential as long as isu152 stays in game.


I agree. Hevay tanks make the game fun, but only for one particular side :D
29 Sep 2014, 20:54 PM
#52
avatar of Kreatiir

Posts: 2819

Let me be clear about one thing, heavies are not good as they are in their current state. At least that is my opinion.
And I'm not only talking about heavies itself, but also about how they are being called in, their impact on the game, ...
29 Sep 2014, 20:59 PM
#53
avatar of The_Courier

Posts: 665

Fuel upkeep seems like a good idea TBH.
29 Sep 2014, 21:17 PM
#54
avatar of KovuTalli

Posts: 332

If there is a fuel penalty added it needs to be on all tanks, just less of a penalty for mediums, otherwise it would promote spamming t34/76, t34/85's and Shermans/Easy 8's (especially if the latter's have no penalty cost) where as all Axis would have is Puma/P4 and maybe the jagdpanzer/stug with no penalty, and due to fuel costs allies would always overwhelm and win or get a very large advantage mid game before the heavy tanks come out assuming the Axis players do not prepare enough none tank based AT.

It would also mean that once an Axis player has a Panther or something heavier out that allies (and vice versa Axis with P4 vs IS2) could just trade medium tanks for little/no loss due to not having a penalty while the opposing player would.
29 Sep 2014, 21:22 PM
#55
avatar of Tetley

Posts: 187

Fuel upkeep is interesting but it wont solve the issue that as soon as heavies such as the KT roll out its gg, the armor on these things makes stock units useless as they rarely penetrate and even if they do the damage is negligible.

I'm really bored of the "create blob" and hold out for heavies meta that's currently around.
and
29 Sep 2014, 22:59 PM
#56
avatar of and

Posts: 140

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Sep 2014, 21:22 PMTetley
Fuel upkeep is interesting but it wont solve the issue that as soon as heavies such as the KT roll out its gg, the armor on these things makes stock units useless as they rarely penetrate and even if they do the damage is negligible.


Exactly, this is why fuel upkeep is a bad idea.

Imagine a call in tank that no unit could penetrate. Yeah, no amount of fuel upkeep would balance that unit.

Heavy tanks needs to be scaled down through both stat and cost decreases, such that they are more in line with the rest of the tanks. Basically they need to be only slightly better than medium tanks, not extreme as they are now. Heavy tanks need to be made counterable.

At the moment they're equivalent to 'I win' buttons, and who cares about fuel upkeep after you win?
Vaz
30 Sep 2014, 00:14 AM
#57
avatar of Vaz

Posts: 1158

fuel upkeep would help if they were getting destroyed, but once they are on the field, mountains have to be moved to take them out.
30 Sep 2014, 00:36 AM
#58
avatar of wongtp

Posts: 647

Let me be clear about one thing, heavies are not good as they are in their current state. At least that is my opinion.
And I'm not only talking about heavies itself, but also about how they are being called in, their impact on the game, ...


put perspective into germans, they dont have that big of a problem with heavies because of good, effective AT.

it is the allies that are suffering from getting rolled by superheavies and heavies because of constant shot bounces. apart from the isu152 which is as stupid as the jadgtiger, paks can handle everything even a is2 which cannot duke it out with paks without taking a huge hp loss in return.

kt/tiger ace/tiger can however, go straight up against a zis and beat them, because of insanely thick frontal armour for the KT, superb range for the TA but most importantly stupidly slow fire rate of the zis which cannot do enough dps to scare away heavies.

su85 is the next best option but against coordinated teams like double okw, once jadgtiger hit the field, su85s are so invalidated, you need the zis or an isu to do the real AT work and if your team dont have isu, you are soooooo boned. shit like this make the game so nonsensical.
30 Sep 2014, 01:10 AM
#59
avatar of pigsoup
Patrion 14

Posts: 4301 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Sep 2014, 21:22 PMTetley
Fuel upkeep is interesting but it wont solve the issue that as soon as heavies such as the KT roll out its gg, the armor on these things makes stock units useless as they rarely penetrate and even if they do the damage is negligible.

I'm really bored of the "create blob" and hold out for heavies meta that's currently around.


maybe that is the problem with KT and Jagdtiger's insurmountable front armor and very high rear armor.

but the fuel upkeep will help to solve the insult to injury part of these super heavies: by the time allies muster up to destroy the kt/jt, axis can already have enough to call in another one as soon as they lose them. this is because it takes a lot of time to gather all the allies armor, get to right positions while constantly holding the front line, and finally charge with everything with all you got, only to see a replacement 30 secs later.
30 Sep 2014, 01:56 AM
#60
avatar of ThoseDeafMutes

Posts: 1026

I believe the solution relic is going to implement is to nerf call-ins generally - increase the fuel cost moderately, then apply a discount for tiering. So a Tiger might now be 270 fuel, with -20 fuel for each of the following buildings you constructed:

T3
T4

A similar system will probably be in place for the other factions. This will make holding out without building tiers less economically viable. But still possible.

Heavies are call-ins, generally. The only one that isn't that I can think of is the KT, but that requires tiering anyway by definition.
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