The overbearing balance of 4's

QueenRatchet, your playercard is not public, actually.

Either way, please be constructive in this thread.

I appologize for flaming. Will never happen again.

Napalm your entire argument that the allies are somehow weaker yet the soviets win the most in 1 vs 1 so your arguments are pretty much invalid. who has maxim spam sniper spam and m3" as well as the best call in medium tanks.


certainly the heavy tanks of the axis are difficult to remove but thats about the only advantage the axis have and its late game.

Not viable. okw has shrek blobs and reketen. wermacht have faust and paks

Inf + Tanks tbh

I would be happy to see KT as doctrinal unit in place of Panzer IV Ausf J and make PzIV avaible in T0 since one truck is converted or 2 trucks but then make cost lower.
KT as non-doc is very, very unfair...

Give Jadgtiger ability to shoot through obstacles BUT AS AN ABILITY WHICH COST AMMO.
One shot and back to normal.
Kubel should get damage buff while moving and nerf suppression. Make it something like hunting unit or make it doctrinal in place of HMG
Leave Stuka sas it is. Blobs always have to be punished.
This and I'm fine.

A system that is broken can not be fixed by introducing more features on top of it. Instead of more doctrines/units/abilities we need a system that would (1) Maintain the full efficiency of infantry and light vehicles on the field until the very end of the game, (2) Limit the number of medium (to a lesser degree) and heavy (to much bigger extent) armor in team games via their pop increase/fuel income decrease/other measures, and (3) Nerf the AP ability of heavy AT armor.

Less armor + less instawipe units would mean a win for tactical and measured games.

I would be happy to see KT as doctrinal unit in place of Panzer IV Ausf J and make PzIV avaible in T0 since one truck is converted or 2 trucks but then make cost lower.
KT as non-doc is very, very unfair...

Give Jadgtiger ability to shoot through obstacles BUT AS AN ABILITY WHICH COST AMMO.
One shot and back to normal.

Cool solution!

King Tiger can squad wipe easy as ISU-152. KT 1-2 shot AT gun. Only must watch enemy TD. JgTiger shot thru buildings and trees. ISU-152 atomize infantry units.
Ballance team games is only about tuning this units. It is realy problem for Relic? I am affraid Relic want WOW big tanks for fans. Some stupid alli players are everytimes for beat.

Give Jadgtiger ability to shoot through obstacles BUT AS AN ABILITY WHICH COST AMMO.
One shot and back to normal.

ISU-152 has the same ability, so it should be easy to implement it.

You all seem like smart fellas, so lets drop the theorycraft and focus on the problem. The Jagdlol, Jagdlol dont care.

You can pick any composition for commanders but if a single one gets to the battlefield whilst still having enough to support it. Its game over.

There are a few exceptions yes, like steepes, one Jagdlol cant be everywhere. But in most other maps, rostov, city, lanzerath, etc. They lockdown a big sector where the main battle is happening and you are done.

I've been of both ends of the stick, being allied having jacksons vetted, ISUs up the ass. Winning like np, just to have one jagd start erasing the line from the safety of the other side of the map around a wall.

Now here is the important part, NO COMPETENT PLAYER LOSES A JAGDLOL. If you lost a jagdlol its because you were reckless or the game was already lost. Or the 3 b2 got luck and landed their shots.

The Jagdlol is not a glass cannon, its a fucking tigerB, it takes significant pounding to get it. There a few strats that MAYBE kill it. Spam b2, multiple paratrooper hand of god planes and at the same time send everything you have. But in the end, Jagdlol dont care.

So before people come to say that they are slow, or vulnerable or all of that meaningless arguments, lets do case by case.

Case 1: In 4v4 sometimes there are arranged teams of people that talk to each other. In such case, losing a Jagdlol is close to impossible.

Case 2: Two players communitcating supporting a Jagdlol, killing it is close to impossible, one player gets flares doctrine, the other breakthru and the party begins, no need for a spotter just eat up.

Case 3: Random players all around, one gets a Jagdlol, in this case is where a lot of you have experienced the rarity that is killing one of these beasts. Without support a single jackson can get on his tail and blow it up. However most of the time, even in random team games, someone will have their blob close to it and Jagdlol wont care about your puny tanks.

In summary, this massive unit that doesnt need LOS moves well enough, no setup time, rarely misses. Makes the meta irrelevant for lategame, it is a winbutton and saying that nerfing it would kill 1v1 is ridiculous since you don't see it in 1v1.

PS. Breakthru doctrine, srsly who designed that thing, every skill on that tree is superb, excellent artillery, excellent passive for capping, officer to buff units while you wait for your gas, fusileers to flare and longrange infantry. Christ....

I think the game can be resolved at all levels through more reasonable stats and costs. That's really what makes the axis units so damn strong is their stats are through the roof, making them more efficient.

There is a lot of stupid logic to me with regards to the way some thing were balanced. Like conscripts especially. They now have to get to point blank range for optimum efficiency, but they are carrying long range rifles. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's it harder to put a bullet in someone with a rifle at close range than say medium range? They don't have bayonetts either. So at long range they fire blanks pretty much. This is just dumb to me. It's ok that better trained infantry are better at long range, but it should be a small margin not a gaping ravine.

These types of things carry on to the armor game as well. I know those of you here who mostly play axis have seen some shreks bounce off an IS2 or maybe an ISU, but for the most part, it's axis tanks that are doing most of the bouncing of AT rounds. The armor game has a lot of fixes and I know Relic doesn't want to do a quantity restriction fix. What they can do is better balance out the pop costs. If allied armor is going to be shitty, then put the pop cost right. T34 isn't very expensive, but you really can't spam them into a proper hoarde. I think the most I've seen are usually for 85's and I've never seen more than 6 from 1 player. That 1 player usually just has a t34 army and no infantry. If we want less heavy tanks then make heavy tanks have a heavier pop impact. Then you don't have players going around owning 3 tiger tanks.

USF needs a lot of changes. I really want to see a standard mine that doesn't require a utility vehicle and 60 mu. There are no infantry mines. These are fundamental things for CoH.

I don't think DLC is needed, but I agree with your points Napalm. 4v4 can be balanced. Absolutes are thrown around this forum/community liberally and I don't agree with a lot of them.

LOL, new OKW nurf target: JagdTiger. Go for it! Oh, and forget about ISU, too. Soviets should be allowed to have something like that, because they can build it in every game starting from 2v2 and finishing with 4v4, but since OKW can't build as easily a Jagdtiger, better nurf it.

Good logic, keep on writing!

LOL, new OKW nurf target: JagdTiger. Go for it! Oh, and forget about ISU, too. Soviets should be allowed to have something like that, because they can build it in every game starting from 2v2 and finishing with 4v4, but since OKW can't build as easily a Jagdtiger, better nurf it.

Good logic, keep on writing!

Why do you avoid all discussion, you can battle an ISU. Its not an easy battle, but tigerB doesnt get two shotted by an ISU. You can't battle a jagd. It two shots everything that is not a IS2, and those get 3 shotted.

Why do you avoid all discussion, you can battle an ISU. Its not an easy battle, but tigerB doesnt get two shotted by an ISU. You can't battle a jagd. It two shots everything that is not a IS2, and those get 3 shotted.

Because I find less and less reasonable requests on this forum
A reasonable discution would be: Let's make a list of OKW units that you think it should be nerfed and post it. I am pretty sure that we will find there at least 70% percent of them. Conclusion may be then:
1. Change the faction entirely and make it as shitty as Ostheer currently.
2. People who understand why this faction is like it is (without being unbalanced) and who are willing to find solutions to fight it instead whining all over the place are indeed verry few, so OKW will beter be removed.

Because I find less and less reasonable requests on this forum
A reasonable discution would be: Let's make a list of OKW units that you think it should be nerfed and post it. I am pretty sure that we will find there at least 70% percent of them. Conclusion may be then:
1. Change the faction entirely and make it as shitty as Ostheer currently.
2. People who understand why this faction is like it is (without being unbalanced) and who are willing to find solutions to fight it instead whining all over the place are indeed verry few, so OKW will beter be removed.

What? Please read the post, I am not arguing about 70% of the units, there is a single unit that DICTATES the meta in team games. A doctrinal tank that ends games when it comes to the battle. There is no other unit with this impact on the battlefield.

Are you that bad that you think you require the jagd to be able to win? I can bet you something, even if you change the damage output to HALF, the jagd would still own and would decide games. The range alone allows you to have ZERO risk when using it.

Napalm your entire argument that the allies are somehow weaker yet the soviets win the most in 1 vs 1 so your arguments are pretty much invalid.

Which is obvious in the win ratio he posted in the OP. The question being how can we fix so that Win ratios goes up for allies in teamgames without making allies win more of the games in 1v1. Preferably so they win a bit less in that game mode.

You all seem like smart fellas, so lets drop the theorycraft and focus on the problem. The Jagdlol, Jagdlol dont care.

Well, if you look at my post on the previous page (RE caches and Opal trucks), then Jagd doesn't become as big a problem, as the OKW player will have to wait a lot longer to get one. He'll also not be able to build other tanks as efficiently. Then the question for the OKW player becomes: "do I dare wait for the Jagd?".

The key to balancing 2v2/3v3/4v4 is to bring the principles of 1v1 into the bigger games. If you make OKW play by the same rules in 4v4 as 1v1, they become a lot more manageable, without screwing up balance in other modes.

In other words, no need to nerf to the Jagd, just make the faction play like it does in 1v1. If a guy manages to get out a Jagd, then their team probably deserves it.

The key to balancing 2v2/3v3/4v4 is to bring the principles of 1v1 into the bigger games. If you make OKW play by the same rules in 4v4 as 1v1, they become a lot more manageable, without screwing up balance in other modes.

In other words, no need to nerf to the Jagd, just make the faction play like it does in 1v1. If a guy manages to get out a Jagd, then their team probably deserves it.

The only possibility of bringing 1v1 principles into team games is if Relic starts to scale the resource incomes and costs of units depending on how many players are in the game. Otherwise it's not possible. Since I don't see them ever doing that, I think a nerf on the Jagdtiger in some manner is the only way to balance armor in 2v2 and up.

There is no theory crafting in this. WFA came out in late June. If Relic wanted to adjust singular OKW units they would have done so by now. Using the 1's numbers as reference, that mode is nearly balanced. So using Relic logic, why change something that is not broken? After talking to some of the Beta balancers they have expressed some of their frustration with me and...I really cant see Relic approach changing unless the community gets really really mad.

My new approach is the DLC way. Does it suck? Yes. But, this is reality. Axis players get to win by maintaining their super armor, Allies get to win by getting gaps filled in the current unit rosters, and Relic gets to win by getting money. Everybody wins! The big catch is that these Doctrines will have to be well designed.

Think about it.

Napalm your entire argument that the allies are somehow weaker yet the soviets win the most in 1 vs 1 so your arguments are pretty much invalid. who has maxim spam sniper spam and m3" as well as the best call in medium tanks.


certainly the heavy tanks of the axis are difficult to remove but thats about the only advantage the axis have and its late game.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1cLUwwk5-l_rM9_qwQGBykOAd7960Bw2TrpnINSvRW-A/edit?usp=sharing

You were saying?

Delusions, delusions, delusions.