It's time to nerf OKW late game

I will take issue with my friend the wombat about nerfing fuel income in 4v4

That's not going to get the 1v1 and 2v2 crowd playing 4v4; instead it is most likely to upset existing 4v4 players.

One of the reasons people play 4v4 because they like seeing heavy units on the field in usable numbers


The problem with that is not that people are spamming heavy tanks, or that they are able to have more than one:

The problem is that OKW have really good late game units, this means that they can make efficient use of the pop cap and are not bleeding fuel or manpower to replace them.


OKH v Sov is and was fine.


Both have viable late game options if it turns into a slugfest and the game goes that long:

IS2, ISU-152, T34-85 v Tiger, Elephant, Panther


OKW have very strong, very durable mega units - and in team games they will go long enough to get them out, especially with caches and lots of salvage. The K-T, strongest tank in the game, isn't even doctrinal*

Worse to fight them you are reliant on:

Off map call in

Artillery (very map dependent, done it on Ettlebruck, not anywhere else)

Swarming them with inferior units



The problem with swarming them, is that is no such thing as a drawn battle for the allies. You HAVE to win.

You fight a KT with 5 T34s and you take it to 40% damage and lose 3 of yours.

You just lost MP, Fuel and Vet you won't get back and all you have achieved is to give Vet to him and driven him off the map for a bit


So you should try to stay in the fight and kill him, even if you win this might mean you lose 4 out of 5 tanks and you are not much better off than before because you have nothing left to exploit.

Or you lose all your tanks, and he is only damaged which means you are screwed.


++++++++++++++++++++++

I don't really want OKW to be nerfed late game, I would like the others to be more competitive against them


That might not be possible though.


That said, I really think the K-T should be a capstone 16CP call in for Elite Armoured and not available to everyone in every game.

Make the elite IV-J the standard non-doc tank.

Well put Van Voort

The only think i see as being too strong in the OKW late game is How ridiculously overpowering their infantry can be, both volks and obers

Volks with 5 combat bonuses clearly overperform compared to other Units with only 2 combat bonuses and useless vet 1 abilities. Tone down the Infantry than re-evaluate the faction afterwards.

OKW have a plethora of powerful late game units like the Obersoldaten, Panzerfusiliers, Falls, and Jaegers and vetted Volks with Schrecks. These units do amazing damage to either infantry or tanks. The KT is nearly impervious to Allied At except ISU and IS2 and Jacsons. Schreck blobs just destroy Allied medium tanks, which make ripe picking for Jagdtigers and KTs.


I find OKW to be a ticking time bomb. They do not have a weak early game anymore now that Kubel has been buffed. They don't seem to have many weaknesses. Once they start blobbing up those Obersoldaten, schreck blobs, and armor, it becomes a pain to deal with them.

AXIS ARE DOMINATING

FACTION WIN/LOSS RATIO

nice stats. from my point of view , in 3v3+, only advantage allies have is the tiny bit of mid game where a t34 might come out 30 seconds faster than a p4

It is true that Axis are overpowered in 3v3 and 4v4 games (not in 1v1 and 2v2). However you all need to keep in mind if you nerf OKW on the basis of team game balance you will essentially throw balance out the window for 1v1s which would be disastrous. This would directly impact the competitive nature of this game and the 'esport' value. Like it or not, 1v1s are the most competitive game mode of any RTS and is often the best place to base balance off (as statistically the best players play 1v1s and can thus uncover the true balance issues as oppose to the L2P issues).

CoH2 is unique to other RTSs due to the emphasis on strategy and RNG. This make balancing 1v1s unable to correctly carry over to other game modes.

I believe the actual cause of this is in 3v3s and 4v4s resources are shared thus inflating the income for one particular person. This creates incomes which would be impossible in 1v1s. Rather than simply nerfing OKW - which is a rather simplistic approach with really bad follow-up consequeces for 1v1 - we should look at trying to replicate the 1v1 situation for teamgames. What I mean by this is reduced income for teamgames (which has already been suggested in this thread). This would mean the early game and mid game would last longer which would allow allies to properly apply their strengths in teamgames and would prevent Axis rushing late game super units and spamming them. This would also not impact the balance for 1v1 as you are not directly nerfing the faction but rather changing how the game mode works so the balance decisions from 1v1 play are actually carried through to the other game modes.

OKW has so much going for it, I have a hard time believing that they won't be able to compete in 1v1, even with a handful of nerfs.

It is true that Axis are overpowered in 3v3 and 4v4 games (not in 1v1 and 2v2). However you all need to keep in mind if you nerf OKW on the basis of team game balance you will essentially throw balance out the window for 1v1s which would be disastrous. This would directly impact the competitive nature of this game and the 'esport' value. Like it or not, 1v1s are the most competitive game mode of any RTS and is often the best place to base balance off (as statistically the best players play 1v1s and can thus uncover the true balance issues as oppose to the L2P issues).

CoH2 is unique to other RTSs due to the emphasis on strategy and RNG. This make balancing 1v1s unable to correctly carry over to other game modes.

I believe the actual cause of this is in 3v3s and 4v4s resources are shared thus inflating the income for one particular person. This creates incomes which would be impossible in 1v1s. Rather than simply nerfing OKW - which is a rather simplistic approach with really bad follow-up consequeces for 1v1 - we should look at trying to replicate the 1v1 situation for teamgames. What I mean by this is reduced income for teamgames (which has already been suggested in this thread). This would mean the early game and mid game would last longer which would allow allies to properly apply their strengths in teamgames and would prevent Axis rushing late game super units and spamming them. This would also not impact the balance for 1v1 as you are not directly nerfing the faction but rather changing how the game mode works so the balance decisions from 1v1 play are actually carried through to the other game modes.

Thank you for taking the time to post your thoughts. I do agree with the points you are making.

I am not sure however, that reducing resource rates are the way to go. Axis will still dominate the ltae game, although it will take longer to reach. I still think that is unacceptable. All factions should have an equal chance at every stage in the game. Right now, i see OKW as the most problematic faction due to their very strong units. I really think nerfs are the way to go, but the challenge is determining which are appropriate to the larger team games.

From what I read in this tread, what I can see is that people playing mostly 1v1 and 2v2 think that things should be left as they are, and people who mostly play 3v3 and 4v4 consider that OKW is OP. One thing I agree to, every game mode is very different from the other. You may discover you are verry good in 3v3 but suck in 2v2 and 1v1 but it can go also in the opposite way.
So I think people should change for a while their prefered game mode and try other game modes. I think that everything will tone down from each side.
I admit I'm playing 50% 2v2, 30% 1v1 and 20% 3v3 and usually with my teammate(s).
Related to 2v2 or 1v1 my opinon is that OKW needs no toning down except some small adjustments to kubel.
Related to 3v3, you have to take into account that the winner will be the team who coordinates best. We got beated several times in 3v3 while playing Axis with OKW and all, just because Allied team COORDINATED better than us. No faction in the world can resist to a dual/triple player attack. No player, no matter how skillfull is, will not resist when he faces 2 or 3 players at once. It's in the game, since vCoh. So did you actually wonder "Am I doing this right?" And "How much of my whining is actually a L2P issue?"

To answer to some people that stated they are sick to see so much OKW treads: OKW is the only german faction which can currently keep pace with allied, even if it has its handicaps. Ostheer is less and less capable of that. So what will be all the whining about? Ostheer? Not a chance, they are rolled by soviets and USF all the same with ease. OKW, it's another story. It's a strong faction that gives you an equal chance in front of spammers and exploiters. So must be hated alot. And loved, all the same .

Nerf Kubel and buff USF and Kv8. It will be okay.

the best thing to balance all the modes is maby a cap on 1 for heavy tanks.

From what I read in this tread, what I can see is that people playing mostly 1v1 and 2v2 think that things should be left as they are, and people who mostly play 3v3 and 4v4 consider that OKW is OP. One thing I agree to, every game mode is very different from the other. You may discover you are verry good in 3v3 but suck in 2v2 and 1v1 but it can go also in the opposite way.
So I think people should change for a while their prefered game mode and try other game modes. I think that everything will tone down from each side.
I admit I'm playing 50% 2v2, 30% 1v1 and 20% 3v3 and usually with my teammate(s).
Related to 2v2 or 1v1 my opinon is that OKW needs no toning down except some small adjustments to kubel.
Related to 3v3, you have to take into account that the winner will be the team who coordinates best. We got beated several times in 3v3 while playing Axis with OKW and all, just because Allied team COORDINATED better than us. No faction in the world can resist to a dual/triple player attack. No player, no matter how skillfull is, will not resist when he faces 2 or 3 players at once. It's in the game, since vCoh. So did you actually wonder "Am I doing this right?" And "How much of my whining is actually a L2P issue?"

To answer to some people that stated they are sick to see so much OKW treads: OKW is the only german faction which can currently keep pace with allied, even if it has its handicaps. Ostheer is less and less capable of that. So what will be all the whining about? Ostheer? Not a chance, they are rolled by soviets and USF all the same with ease. OKW, it's another story. It's a strong faction that gives you an equal chance in front of spammers and exploiters. So must be hated alot. And loved, all the same .

Agree, basically OKW is fine in smaller game modes except Kubel spam, which is bit retarded,but it still more or less retarded in same way like is Maxim Spam on Semoisky, for example.

As i said, if there is something what really needs a fix then its USA (Double USA is almost unplayable), not nerf OKW to the ground how would some ppl want (mostly 4v4 players anyway). I admit i play 4v4 a lot and turned to smaller game modes recently, but i dont scream BALANCE and NURF, because i know from their naturality, these games modes wont never be balanced, like in any other decent RTS.

OKW is not fine in:

2vs2
3vs3
4vs4

It is simply boggling me how people are dumb enough to whine for across the board BIG NURFS when it has been proven time and time again that the only way to balance things in a RTS is to adjust thing with baby steps. The guys will recognize themselves. I'm just glad people like these have no decision powers whatsoever, as they are only able to break things, and nothing else. I'm done with this thread.

At least some people here are at least acknowledging the existence of 3v3 and 4v4 players.

And Coh 2 is at the position - whether it will stimulate army team- players army and in this case we will see a significant increase of the players base in the future or the player-base will be on decline if the Relic continues to focus mostly on 1 vs 1 mode in terms of balance.

I admit i play 4v4 a lot and turned to smaller game modes recently, but i dont scream BALANCE and NURF, because i know from their naturality, these games modes wont never be balanced, like in any other decent RTS.

Team games only need the same chance deal with big tanks. Konig kubel is annyoning but bigest problem is alli no answer on combination JgTigers, KT and Panthers. Soviets have potent in IS-2 and ISU, but US have only paper tanks. Yes, have it in real, but have air dominance (in game have stronger air attacks and supply germans ).

Team games only need the same chance deal with big tanks. Konig kubel is annyoning but bigest problem is alli no answer on combination JgTigers, KT and Panthers. Soviets have potent in IS-2 and ISU, but US have only paper tanks. Yes, have it in real, but have air dominance (in game have stronger air attacks and supply germans ).

Well, one solution for USF would be the Pershing. Second solution and also realistic (!!) would be exactly what you stated above: some powerfull AT air attacks available in late game. That would be viable against OKW because anyway OKW AAs are shit.

1. Removed shrecks for OKW volks and in exchange for faust/anti-tank grenade and assault package (stg44 + MP40).

2. 3-men Sturmpios with pre-nerf dps but with current received accuracy of 0.8 at 280MP

3. Revised OKW veterency especially OKW (vet 3/4/5) elite infantry Falls/Ober (make them less superhuman)

4. Walking stuka needs AOE nerf and increase scatter with range

5. Flak halftrack ROF decrease by 1/2 and FU increase.

6. KT cap to 1 per player. Jagdtiger 1 time call-in like Tiger Ace.

7. shrecks penetration nerf to 160/140/120.

8. OKW to receive 100% MUN and FU and scale all units and upgrades to cost 33% more. Grenades and other MUN abilities to be unadjusted to prevent hampering of MUN based abilities. MUN and FU conversion to adjust accordingly

9. OKW now requires to build sWS trucks for 200MP, 40s buildtime. Cost of Building T2&T3&T4 is adjusted. No more early game truck pushing.

10. Kubel stats nerf - DPS, acceleration, target size. It nows require 3 sec setup time.

11. Puma penetration nerf from 160/140/120 to 120/110/100. I find it odd that 50mm cannon could outperform a 75mm StugIII cannon

1. Removed shrecks for OKW volks and in exchange for faust/anti-tank grenade and assault package (stg44 + MP40).

2. 3-men Sturmpios with pre-nerf dps but with current received accuracy of 0.8 at 280MP

3. Revised OKW veterency especially OKW (vet 3/4/5) elite infantry Falls/Ober (make them less superhuman)

4. Walking stuka needs AOE nerf and increase scatter with range

5. Flak halftrack ROF decrease by 1/2 and FU increase.

6. KT cap to 1 per player. Jagdtiger 1 time call-in like Tiger Ace.

7. shrecks penetration nerf to 160/140/120.

8. OKW to receive 100% MUN and FU and scale all units and upgrades to cost 33% more. Grenades and other MUN abilities to be unadjusted to prevent hampering of MUN based abilities. MUN and FU conversion to adjust accordingly

9. OKW now requires to build sWS trucks for 200MP, 40s buildtime. Cost of Building T2&T3&T4 is adjusted. No more early game truck pushing.

10. Kubel stats nerf - DPS, acceleration, target size. It nows require 3 sec setup time.

11. Puma penetration nerf from 160/140/120 to 120/110/100. I find it odd that 50mm cannon could outperform a 75mm StugIII cannon

lol

Personally I feel:

1. Tweak Kuble (probably just a single one) small change such as reducing it's suppression, prevent reversing, adding a reload time to break suppression or adding a fuel cost.

2. Add more early game units for USF (Jeep maybe) for variety of early game Strat. (maybe this, along with many more commanders) is coming with the Ardennes Assault addon??

3. Maybe make Tiger/Jagtiger doctrine only units.

4. Add Heavy tank (Pershing) commander for USF

5. Allow for T35/85 building soviets

6. Fix irritating bugs like maxim retreat.

7. Allow mixed teams (as a filter option) on automatching - No more wait times and to give a true reflection of faction preference selections.

8. Maybe investigate resource penalties and unit restrictions for 3v3 & 4v4 for all factions.

And Coh 2 is at the position - whether it will stimulate army team- players army and in this case we will see a significant increase of the players base in the future or the player-base will be on decline if the Relic continues to focus mostly on 1 vs 1 mode in terms of balance.

No I think the game will be on the rise as long as Relic continues to focus on 1v1, balance should move up not down. Also 1v1s and 2v2s are more enjoyable to watch than cluster-f*** 3v3s and 4v4s and watchable games will bring more people to the game than spammy tank fest.

No I think the game will be on the rise as long as Relic continues to focus on 1v1, balance should move up not down. Also 1v1s and 2v2s are more enjoyable to watch than cluster-f*** 3v3s and 4v4s and watchable games will bring more people to the game than spammy tank fest.

I believe Relic should be focusing on balance on all modes of the game, otherwise not include them at all. 3v3 and 4v4 are modes of play built into the game and accommodated with official maps and therefore should be just as much of a priority in terms of balanced as other modes of play. How this is done is debatable.

Personally I care more what it's like to play than how it's "watchable" state is! Besides the fact that in it's present state CoH2 is no where near ready to be taken as serious e-sport/competitive game, and therefore not as "enjoyable to watch" anyway because of balance issues at all levels!

I dunno about you, but I buy games to play not to watch others play - more specifically I buy games to play with my mates and presently I'm restricted to playing custom games organised between my clan mates purely because it's the only way we can get a semi-competitive game. That said I'm willing to bet people would enjoy watching 3v3 and 4v4 competitive games between a balanced factions as much (if not more!) as 1v1s. A coordianted team strategy would certainly be something I'd revere above a personal 1v1 strat.

This is a ridiculous statement. Of course Relic should be focusing on all aspects of the game, otherwise not include them at all. 3v3 and 4v4 are modes of play built into the game and accommodated with official maps and therefore should be as balanced as other modes of play. How this is done is debatable, but personally I feel the reason that 3v3 and 4v4s are so imbalanced because they simply amplify the imbalances (on both sides!) that are inherent in the game at 1v1 and 2v2 levels! Writing these modes of play off is just a cop out.

Personally I care more what it's like to play than how it's "watchable" state is! Besides the fact that in it's present state CoH2 is no where near ready to be taken as serious e-sport/competitive game, and therefore not as "enjoyable to watch" anyway!

I dunno about you, but I buy games to play not to watch others play - more specifically I buy games to play with my mates and presently I'm restricted to playing custom games organised between my clan mates purely because it's the only way we can get a semi-competitive game.

Which is why I said the game balance should flow up from 1v1 and not down from 4v4, many people just want 3v3 and 4v4 to be balanced and state that the game will only grow with those two game modes, because they like to play them. Everyone likes what they like right? And if you don't you are an Axis/Allies fan-boy who should L2P or not take the game so seriously.

As for growth of the game, people get interested in a game by seeing how players play it and most casts and videos done for this game and more competitive and popular games are from 1v1 and 2v2 replays. The reason being it is easier for the caster and the watcher to follow 2 or 4 players than it is for them to follow 6 or 8.

I am not saying I don't think 3v3 and 4v4 should be playable, but a lot of people are spouting that because 4v4 isn't perfectly balanced the game is dying and I truly disagree. Relic has already stated that previous RTS games balance for competitive 1v1 and 2v2 and that is how they grew such large player bases; therefore Relic is going to balance for 1v1 and 2v2 and let the balance fixes flow up to 3v3 and 4v4.