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russian armor

IS2 vs Infantry

24 Sep 2014, 11:20 AM
#41
avatar of Cannonade

Posts: 752

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Sep 2014, 10:17 AMCruzz


Obviously not, it's a purely theoretical value just to show the relative damage differences. You could just deduct one reload time from all the numbers if you want that.


You should deduct if from your own figures.

t makes a huge proportional difference, and is a much fairer representation, especially because much of your argument is resting on reload, for which you have not deducted the lack of reload preceeding the first shot from your equations.
24 Sep 2014, 11:25 AM
#42
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

Its also firing at infantry units which generally have less models though.


Which means it have ever harder time hitting anything, thank you for contributing positively for the IS-2 being weak against infantry.
24 Sep 2014, 11:35 AM
#43
avatar of Cruzz

Posts: 1221 | Subs: 41



You should deduct if from your own figures.

t makes a huge proportional difference, and is a much fairer representation, especially because much of your argument is resting on reload, for which you have not deducted the lack of reload preceeding the first shot from your equations.


And will I deduct it from the near shots, despite it being a huge ground target effort to micro the tanks so that they won't blow their load before closing in? Or should I add in the first shot as a long range one? Too much work either way.

The entire point of those numbers was purely to show that the IS2 does not have some magical survivability advantage over Tiger when you take into account just how much better axis AT is.
24 Sep 2014, 11:39 AM
#44
avatar of Cannonade

Posts: 752

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Sep 2014, 11:25 AMKatitof


Which means it have ever harder time hitting anything, thank you for contributing positively for the IS-2 being weak against infantry.


Nope, not really.

Squad dispersal is incidental. Its a problem overall in CoH2. Sometimes they clump, sometimes they dont.

A 6man unit has a wider dispersal, so though there is a marginally greater chance a shot will hit a model, it also means it can hit it in the periphery of the larger, wider unit dispersal, causing dmg to less models than in a 4man unit where it is less dispersed and more likely to take a hit to the central grouping.

IS2 also has 0.5 greater AoE radius, which is substantial in terms of hitting more models on a smaller unit, the line width of which is less than on a 6man unit, where it might wing it for a model kill on the edges, but "waste" the rest of its AoE to either side.

Scatter, necessarily, is greater on IS2 for this reason, or it would wipe 4mans far more consistently.

Thanks for the comment on positive contribution though :)
Maybe one day someone might say the same to you, though it hasnt happened yet!
24 Sep 2014, 11:53 AM
#45
avatar of Cannonade

Posts: 752

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Sep 2014, 11:35 AMCruzz


And will I deduct it from the near shots, despite it being a huge ground target effort to micro the tanks so that they won't blow their load before closing in? Or should I add in the first shot as a long range one? Too much work either way.

You already assume, in all the equations, that theynhave blown their load on something else first.
Thats the problem with not deducting the first shot from the reloads.
Reload is one of the core elements in your equations.It unfairly skews the numbers to assume the first shot requires a reload before it goes off.

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Sep 2014, 11:35 AMCruzz
The entire point of those numbers was purely to show that the IS2 does not have some magical survivability advantage over Tiger when you take into account just how much better axis AT is.


Making a point by unfairly representing figures, is no point.
The difference narrows significantly if you deduct reload from the first shot.

Your equations assume the first shot is fired at the desginated other element in the equations.
Tgerefore it is not representative to include a reload timer BEFORE the first shot is fired.
24 Sep 2014, 12:00 PM
#46
avatar of Sarantini
Honorary Member Badge
Donator 22

Posts: 2181

It is impossible to calculate vehicle kill times with spreadsheets for this game. It gives a good ground work but after 20 seconds it falls flat. For example missed shots hitting through scatter and terrain are impossible to calculate.
For this fight. Let's say the t34 is shooting the tiger and surviving the whole time. At some point it vets up giving it faster reload.
These times are for situation which will never occur
24 Sep 2014, 12:03 PM
#47
avatar of broodwarjc

Posts: 824

ISU is a much bigger problem than IS-2, that thing one-shots Vet 4 Obers. The Is-2 does a lot of infantry damage, but it rarely one-shots squads.
24 Sep 2014, 12:10 PM
#48
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

ISU is a much bigger problem than IS-2, that thing one-shots Vet 4 Obers. The Is-2 does a lot of infantry damage, but it rarely one-shots squads.

I know obers are batshit strong and stuff, but you shouldn't really try to a-move ISU with them. Overwhelming power can blind the user, but sometimes you need to use a pair of Pumas against allies.
24 Sep 2014, 12:11 PM
#49
avatar of Cannonade

Posts: 752

Actually, its the opposite.

The longer an engagement lasts, the more predictable it is.
Its in the nature of RNG that there can be deviations in a narrow sample, but they are eventually equalled out.

Such things as vet ypgrades can be included into the equations, but its not nearly as relevant to know the output of a unit that V2s halfeay through a fight, as it is to know the baseline statistical performance. The v2 event is just incidental, and easily added ontop ot the existing data.
24 Sep 2014, 12:12 PM
#50
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

delete, double post
24 Sep 2014, 12:17 PM
#51
avatar of Brachiaraidos

Posts: 627

ISU is a much bigger problem than IS-2, that thing one-shots Vet 4 Obers. The Is-2 does a lot of infantry damage, but it rarely one-shots squads.


Why the holy mother of Quetzalcoatl do people keep bringing up 'Omg vetted X, Y, Z' when they talk about squads getting one-shotted?

It's tank caliber weaponry. You could be vet 5, you could be vet 0, you could be vet 9000. No infantry vet is going to save you from an artillery shell landing five feet from your boots.

Your vet means nothing when the shells get as big as your torso, stop mentioning it as if it makes a difference.
24 Sep 2014, 12:17 PM
#52
avatar of Cannonade

Posts: 752

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Sep 2014, 12:10 PMKatitof

I know obers are batshit strong and stuff, but you shouldn't really try to a-move ISU with them. Sometimes you need to use a pair of Pumas.


He never said that he a-moved vs ISUs with obers.

Infact it doesnt matter if its Obers, PaKs or any otherninfantry unit.

Weird and wondeful imagination you have, to assume things that are not actually there or said by anyone.

Must be very difficult and strange, constantly living in an imaginary world where you hear people saying things that they actually never said...!

Brachi: Yes was pointless mentioning Obers specifically. ISU doesnt care. It wipes them all.
Nice attempt at fixating on an irrelevancy. His mention of Obers was irrelevant, but then you fixated on the irrelevancy, rather than the issue. Sort of did the same thing he did, but differently!
24 Sep 2014, 13:35 PM
#53
avatar of Chernov

Posts: 70

Why conscript die quickly pretty much to anything ever it's one-shot or not, vet or not, in early, mid or late game????
24 Sep 2014, 13:38 PM
#54
avatar of Cannonade

Posts: 752

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Sep 2014, 13:35 PMChernov
Why conscript die quickly pretty much to anything ever it's one-shot or not, vet or not, in early, mid or late game????


wat.

cons survive better due to 6man soak.

they dont die any faster than any other unit.

infact they have 2 extra men worth of soak compared to most other factions units.
24 Sep 2014, 13:51 PM
#55
avatar of Airborne

Posts: 281

the power of the IS-2 against infantry is the DSHK it main gun i pretty crappy.
24 Sep 2014, 13:53 PM
#56
avatar of The_Courier

Posts: 665

You were blobbing and you ran face first into a tank with large AOE, you deserved everything you got.


Quoted for accuracy and great justice. If I rounded 4 blobbed rifles into a KT it would probably wipe two squads then and there. IS-2 is not a squadwipe machine, it's slightly worse than the Tiger vs infantry which makes it fine.
24 Sep 2014, 18:39 PM
#57
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

Tiger is more RELIABLE to do damage to infantry and armor.
IS2 is unreliable to do damage against infantry (specially on the move and at distance) cause it either hits or miss, both, by a LOT.

To OP: what would you expect if you faced a tiger at point blank range with a blob of units?
24 Sep 2014, 18:59 PM
#58
avatar of Cannonade

Posts: 752

I think IS-2 and Tiger are ok, in relation to each other.

Tiger AI is perhaps too high, but then again so is IS-2 armor.

Some small tweaking is perhaps possible.
24 Sep 2014, 22:40 PM
#59
avatar of daspoulos

Posts: 1116 | Subs: 1

Permanently Banned
I'd be more in favor of it having say an 8 second reload with 240 damage, that way it gets rid of its image of a glorified panther and since it does higher damage wouldn't it do more AOE damage. Not increased AOE just better damage for explosion radius.
25 Sep 2014, 04:42 AM
#60
avatar of Xylon666Darkstar

Posts: 11

Maybe you should blob a lot less, OP. This isn't Starcraft.
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