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Appealing and imbalances of 4v4

24 Sep 2014, 11:34 AM
#41
avatar of _underscore
Donator 33

Posts: 322

I really enjoy the games vs arranged teams where you experience different factions and doctrines working together in harmony. If it's a close game you pretty much end up with extended team fights in the middle of the map (excluding city17) which is awesome.

As for what could possibly change to help balance.... Re-costing all the units for 4v4 would go a long way but it's too confusing so never going to happen. Fuel upkeep sounds like a more reasonable idea that would scale fairly well, probably even benefitting smaller games in fact.
24 Sep 2014, 17:57 PM
#42
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

4v4 will never be balanced because relic won't do it as they focus on 1v1 and 2v2.

Why?

Because RTS needs to be competitive at that level.
And because relic says so.

The point that some are making that we don't specifically focus on balancing 4v4 games is valid. The team spends most of its time focused on balancing 1v1 and 2v2 games, and that balance works its way up through the game. For the most part that is how RTS games are balanced, and certainly how we've always done it at Relic. Unless you go for a relatively simple design where each army is in fact simply a skin swap of the others, this is most likely always going to be the case. In Monopoly, for example, the top hat and the canon are perfectly balanced against each other since they're the same unit.
Comparing RTS games to other games is rather hard to do since most RTS games have a larger number of units in play at once. I'm certainly not a high level LoL or DOTA2 player but at any given time there are only what 10 units in play along with the NPC allies who are basically the same unit on either side. I imagine that balancing each hero unit is tricky but that game is designed for that size of game. Football is balanced around the capabilities of real life human physical capabilities. Each team has the same positions, and it's up to the players to make a difference.
Which isn't to say that we don't balance the higher games, just that the prime focus is on 1v1 and 2v2.

http://community.companyofheroes.com/forum/company-of-heroes-2/coh-2-balance-feedback/105777-okw-op-waaaah-waaaah-etc?p=105970#post105970
24 Sep 2014, 18:07 PM
#43
avatar of NinjaWJ

Posts: 2070

Hmm if balance is supposed to trickle upwards, then it probably is messed up at the 1v1 and 2v2 levels. Problems probably multiply when larger game modes are involved.

THe weird thing is, the game seems fairly balanced at the 1v1 and 2v2 level (looking at the W/L ratios, but is extremely unbalanced at the 3v3 and 4v4 levels judging by the massive OKW and Ost win rates. My guess is that it has to with how the 4v4 and 3v3 maps are designed.
24 Sep 2014, 18:11 PM
#44
avatar of Cannonade

Posts: 752

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Sep 2014, 17:57 PMKatitof
4v4 will never be balanced because relic won't do it as they focus on 1v1 and 2v2.

Why?

Because RTS needs to be competitive at that level.
And because relic says so.


http://community.companyofheroes.com/forum/company-of-heroes-2/coh-2-balance-feedback/105777-okw-op-waaaah-waaaah-etc?p=105970#post105970


For once, I haveto agree with Katitof, regrettably.

This game is not designed or built for 2v2+. Nor is balancing possible across the game mode spectrum.

In that quote, you hear it right from the horses mout, and those of us who are familiar with Relic production history, it has always been the case.

Its not entirely their fault. RTS overall, is not really there yet for real 2v2+, in any game.
The format is flawed. You cant extend a 1v1 game to mean 4v4 are basivally each playing a 1v1 match vs each other. It just doesnt woek that way.

By all means, keep up the pressure, and maybe something can be done about costs and income levels in 2v2+, but though I am no coder, I think its not nearly as easy as it seems.

Instead, focus on teamwork with established mates. Plan and coordinate, communicate.
Your best bet is to out-exploit your opponents, as best as your team can manage.
24 Sep 2014, 18:59 PM
#45
avatar of ludd3emm

Posts: 292

Why would they even include 3vs3 and 4vs4 in the game if they are not focusing on getting it balanced?

They should think about why computer games that are team focused are so popular and start in that end. Why are the most popular sports in the world team based? Why are the most popular computer games focused on team play?

Because it is generally more fun to interact and watch other people achieve the same goal rather than watching two lonely narcissists cockfighting.
24 Sep 2014, 19:14 PM
#46
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

Why would they even include 3vs3 and 4vs4 in the game if they are not focusing on getting it balanced?


For the same reason they included allies.

Masochists also want to play games.
24 Sep 2014, 19:18 PM
#47
avatar of Cannonade

Posts: 752

Why would they even include 3vs3 and 4vs4 in the game if they are not focusing on getting it balanced?


Same reason a large cucumber can be used in many ways... if your inclined that way.

You CAN use it that way, but yeah, its not exactly the original purpose.
24 Sep 2014, 19:24 PM
#48
avatar of Omega_Warrior

Posts: 2561

4v4 issues aren't just in 4v4, though. It is just an accumulation of problems that are very much present in 1v1 and 2v2 as well. It's not like the US have a good late game in those modes either.
24 Sep 2014, 20:24 PM
#49
avatar of MajorBloodnok
Admin Red  Badge
Patrion 314

Posts: 10665 | Subs: 9

As most of you will know, EGX in London kicks off tomorrow, and it seems Quinn Duffy and Greg Wilson will give a sermon talk on the new Campaign on Friday at 4pm.

I highly doubt - though I hope I am wrong - that balance issues on 1v1/2v2 as against 3v3/4v4 will be addressed
24 Sep 2014, 20:30 PM
#50
avatar of NinjaWJ

Posts: 2070

As most of you will know, EGX in London kicks off tomorrow, and it seems Quinn Duffy and Greg Wilson will give a sermon talk on the new Campaign on Friday at 4pm.

I highly doubt - though I hope I am wrong - that balance issues on 1v1/2v2 as against 3v3/4v4 will be addressed


Bummer :(
24 Sep 2014, 20:32 PM
#51
avatar of MajorBloodnok
Admin Red  Badge
Patrion 314

Posts: 10665 | Subs: 9

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Sep 2014, 20:30 PMNinjaWJ


Bummer :(


I might be wrong (about the issues they address) ;)
24 Sep 2014, 20:36 PM
#52
avatar of wayward516

Posts: 229

I highly doubt - though I hope I am wrong - that balance issues on 1v1/2v2 as against 3v3/4v4 will be addressed


Yeah, that assuredly won't happen.

  • First, Relic doesn't have the manpower to break out balance by game mode. Imagine a patch cycle twice as slow as the current one, for them to patch 1v1/2v2 balance, and then 3v3/4v4 balance.
  • Secondly, this is unprecedented. Even Blizzard doesn't break out balance by game mode.
  • Thirdly, BALALNCE CHANGES!!?!?!?!! isn't something that developers talk about at trade shows. They want to talk about new content: DLC, expansions, etc. This will be about Ardennes Assault, and any upcoming major update, like we had with the southern fronts (?) update.
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