So... maxims...

If they dont want to nerf maxim or sov sniper 2 man team, at least give it adequate counters for OKW.

But you also have to bear in mind that Soviet troops are not by core design, meant to be as efficient or deadly as German counterparts. The "Enemy at the Gates" vision that was originally implied in Beta should be maintained, because that's how they decided to build the game.

Why exactly? OKW looked completely different in the alpha economy and tech structure wise. When a design clearly doesn't work it should be reworked completely instead of clinging on to a design.
I for one dont want the medium tank that is only good for ramming back

The problem is you cannot buff core infantry first without nerfing the maxim or snipers or shocks because then you would just have a superbuffed Soviet army. When those things are brought in line, then and only then will it be right to buff the core infantry.

Can be done with a beta testing 3 weeks prior to patching.
The OKW was changed two weeks before Western fronts came out.

But you also have to bear in mind that Soviet troops are not by core design, meant to be as efficient or deadly as German counterparts. The "Enemy at the Gates" vision that was originally implied in Beta should be maintained, because that's how they decided to build the game.

Yes, Soviets are designed around call ins, that doesn't imply that their core units have to become obsolete after the 15 minutes mark. It's the same manpower spend in early game as OKW/Ostheer does with their grens, why should it be a manpower investment that doesn't have a constant "cash-flow". It's just not fair and also against the spirit of coh that should reward unit preservation with good scaling units.

I still think they should implement those call in troops you had in the campaign, once cons reach vet 2-3 + t3 or t4 you can upgrade them in units that already exist in the game (sp campaign, were called Frontowiki in the German version). Not a big work for relic, as no modelling is needed, just recycle what the game already offers.

The problem is you cannot buff core infantry first without nerfing the maxim or snipers or shocks because then you would just have a superbuffed Soviet army. When those things are brought in line, then and only then will it be right to buff the core infantry.

Actually, you can.
Kubel just got buffed and guess what?
Volks weren't nerfed in return.
In fact they were buffed so now they are cheaper then cons, scale better then cons and stomp cons in every single situation except at vet0 at point blank range.

Yes, kubel is not infantry squad, but it doesn't cost any fuel and infantry is its intended target so that comparison is valid and if you're still stuck in denial:
Long time ago when MG42 was batshit OP relic didn't buffed grens when they nerfed MG.

Buffing underpowered unit isn't and shouldn't be a warranty to nerf other unit, especially if that other unit is considered fine by most top players. If unit is balanced at top level play then it is players issue, not balance one if he struggles against it. In this case you can't nerf it, because it imbalances high level play, but you can't buff player, player needs to buff himself alone. This is the case here as both OKW and Ost have early available hardcounters for maxims. Refusal to use them doesn't make them any less of a hardcounter.

But you also have to bear in mind that Soviet troops are not by core design, meant to be as efficient or deadly as German counterparts. The "Enemy at the Gates" vision that was originally implied in Beta should be maintained, because that's how they decided to build the game.

What if I told you that this is pictured by squad count difference?
1 con model doesn't equal 1 gren model and so on.

This is how it is pictured in the game.

Otherwise, if one unit is more effective then other one, there is absolutely no logical reason why this more effective unit should be equally priced, which means your assumption supports grenadier price increase or conscript and penals price reduction more then anything.

+1 Katitof layin the smacketh

He's right, Kubels were buffed, Volks weren't nerfed...

Except for the part where Sturmpioneers were nerfed, pretty severely actually, as was the MG-34, and the Obersoldaten LMG-34.

Actually, you can.
Kubel just got buffed and guess what?
Volks weren't nerfed in return.
In fact they were buffed so now they are cheaper then cons, scale better then cons and stomp cons in every single situation except at vet0 at point blank range.

Yes, kubel is not infantry squad, but it doesn't cost any fuel and infantry is its intended target so that comparison is valid and if you're still stuck in denial:
Long time ago when MG42 was batshit OP relic didn't buffed grens when they nerfed MG.

Buffing underpowered unit isn't and shouldn't be a warranty to nerf other unit, especially if that other unit is considered fine by most top players. If unit is balanced at top level play then it is players issue, not balance one if he struggles against it. In this case you can't nerf it, because it imbalances high level play, but you can't buff player, player needs to buff himself alone. This is the case here as both OKW and Ost have early available hardcounters for maxims. Refusal to use them doesn't make them any less of a hardcounter.



What if I told you that this is pictured by squad count difference?
1 con model doesn't equal 1 gren model and so on.

This is how it is pictured in the game.

Otherwise, if one unit is more effective then other one, there is absolutely no logical reason why this more effective unit should be equally priced, which means your assumption supports grenadier price increase or conscript and penals price reduction more then anything.

Volks stomping Cons?

Dafug are you playing? Ober gave their MG34 to them?

He's right, Kubels were buffed, Volks weren't nerfed...

Except for the part where Sturmpioneers were nerfed, pretty severely actually, as was the MG-34, and the Obersoldaten LMG-34.

Sturmpios were filth for a unit to have at the 0:00 mark. Much like how assgrens and then assgineers have had to get toned down in firepower and shocks went to CP-many, because relic never learns that giving one army super T0 early game infantry utterly breaks the game. There was a time it was needed to prop up OKW early game, but that is LONG gone now they have 100% muni and better, cheaper volks and superduperturbokubel.

As for the rest?
-The MG-34 was out-preforming the MG-42 even though it's cheap as chips. That one needed to happen.
-LMG-34's took a hit because ALL LMG's took a hit. That's not an OKW specific nerf, it's a change to overall game design.

Sturmpios were filth for a unit to have at the 0:00 mark. Much like how assgrens and then assgineers have had to get toned down in firepower and shocks went to CP-many, because relic never learns that giving one army super T0 early game infantry utterly breaks the game. There was a time it was needed to prop up OKW early game, but that is LONG gone now they have 100% muni and better, cheaper volks and superduperturbokubel.

As for the rest?
-The MG-34 was out-preforming the MG-42 even though it's cheap as chips. That one needed to happen.
-LMG-34's took a hit because ALL LMG's took a hit. That's not an OKW specific nerf, it's a change to overall game design.

Fine, then by that logic, maxims need to be nerfed to complete and total shit, firing pebbles instead of bullets, and Shocktroopers need to have -5.00 armor instead of 1.5 armor, and every sweep of their PPSh should have a chance to kill another member of the squad because he just can't handle the recoil.

Fine, then by that logic, maxims need to be nerfed to complete and total shit, firing pebbles instead of bullets, and Shocktroopers need to have -5.00 armor instead of 1.5 armor, and every sweep of their PPSh should have a chance to kill another member of the squad because he just can't handle the recoil.

I don't know if you know what 'by that logic' means, but you seem to have it confused with 'if I throw logic out the window and piss on a design sheet while baby Stalin cries'

Where the HELL did you get that garbage from?

I don't know if you know what 'by that logic' means, but you seem to have it confused with 'if I throw logic out the window and piss on a design sheet while baby Stalin cries'

Where the HELL did you get that garbage from?

I'm just saying if Sturmpioneers were filth and the MG nerfs were justified because OKW received 100% munitions. Then I would say that we should all indeed piss on a design sheet while baby Stalin cries, simply for the reason that every other faction can build caches if I need a reason.

Volks stomping Cons?

Dafug are you playing? Ober gave their MG34 to them?

i think there was a chart somewhere saying Volks have better dps at all ranges except at close range

i think there was a chart somewhere saying Volks have better dps at all ranges except at close range

Plus Volks have much better vet bonuses

I'm just saying if Sturmpioneers were filth and the MG nerfs were justified because OKW received 100% munitions. Then I would say that we should all indeed piss on a design sheet while baby Stalin cries, simply for the reason that every other faction can build caches if I need a reason.

A) Sturmpios were filth because they were a mobile unit with massive amounts of firepower at medium to close range, perfectly capable of catching a unit from behind and utterly wiping it even if they instantly retreated, and were available at 0CP therefore could be used (especially in 2v2 and up) to win, without fail, initial fights for choke points and such. As I said, there was a time that this 0-1 minute advantage was one of the few things keeping a crippled OKW in the fight. OKW is no longer crippled, and does not need that OP stick to prop up the fraction design.

B) The MG-34 nerf was justified because it was the cheapest MG and preformed better than the next two more expensive MG's.

Learn to read? Where does any of this logic translate to 'OMG NERF SHOCKS'?

I'm just saying it's a clear cut issue when a maxim can be spammed to hell because it has virtually no down sides in comparison to its German counterparts. I realize the point of the German MG is to be used defensively but it can't even do that job well.

Maxims lock down and shut down entire sectors, even more efficiently when they are spammed. German MG's.. eh they are just disappointing. Especially against blobs of infantry.

Often I hear the excuse "You can't expect 240mp MG's to stop 1000mp worth of infantry." Which I feel I rightfully can disagree. That's the entire point of a machine gun, to shut down a sector until it is properly flanked or sniped or destroyed with vehicles or indirect fire. Unfortunately the Maxim has proven extremely efficient in these areas while the German MG's have proven to be woefully outmatched.


Let's compare them shall we?

MAXIM

• Pros
  -Frighteningly high suppression and pin rate.
  -6 man squad.
  -Very fast deploy and redeploy time.
  -More damage at range compared to German MGs.
  -Firing arc increases inside buildings.
  -Can continue firing while suppressed and pinned.
  
  
• Cons
  -Can get trapped in a fatal loop where the carriage runner is killed while on retreat.
  -Smaller arc of fire. (Can be mitigated by using maximum range or garrisoning in buildings.
  -Vulnerable to artillery strikes
  
  GERMAN MG34/MG42
  
  
  • Pros
    -Wide firing arc.
    -Incendiary rounds upon veterancy.
    -Amusing dialogue.
    
    
  • Cons
    -4 man squad. (Easier to wipe)
    -Long deployment and redeployment times.
    -Unable to suppress quickly, especially through "oorah" (Often ends up molotoved or grenaded)
    -Especially vulnerable to artillery strikes due to long redeployment time.
    -Less damage at range compared to maxim.
    -Cannot fire while suppressed and pinned (To my knowledge.)
    
    
  
  
  

You left out the biggest Maxim weakness and biggest MG42 strength... Maxim has very low AOE suppression (or none?) whereas MG42 excels at AOE suppression.

Essentially, MG42 by itself can suppress / pin an entire blob due to the AOE. Combined with its massive firing arc, MG42 becomes the premiere machine gun in terms of routing enemy infantry.

Maxim does superior damage but is far worse in the role of suppressing and routing infantry that MG's are supposed to excel at due to its narrow arc and low AOE. This means flanking it is super easy.

In short, if you have problems killing the Maxim, you have no idea how to flank and you're bad.

I'm just saying if Sturmpioneers were filth and the MG nerfs were justified because OKW received 100% munitions. Then I would say that we should all indeed piss on a design sheet while baby Stalin cries, simply for the reason that every other faction can build caches if I need a reason.

I'm not sure your argumentation makes any sense. We're talking about the buffs OKW early game got (boost to Volks, big boost to Kubel), what do caches of all things have to do with that?

And please, OKW got the most buffs out of the latest patch. The MG34 was brought in line as a cheaper, weaker MG than the MG42. Obersoldaten lost DPS on their LMG, like every LMG in the game (even friggin Partisan LMG). Unlike other LMG squads, they also got a buff to their rifle damage, so they still mow down any Allied infantry save vetted shocks and paras almost effortlessly.

Sturms also got a durability buff in exchane for the DPS nerf, so it's not like they were shafted, after the AssEngie nerf they are still the most powerful early game infantry unit.

Yup, OKW is in a pretty good spot right now. Flexible, fun, strong. Soviets on the other hand... Ugh. The last thing they need are arbitrary nerfs to units that are actually performing well, or just at all. A lot of their units need adjusting but it goes far beyond "nerf maxims and shocks because I don't like them."

Maxims shutting down entire sectors!?!??! Doesn't the MG42 have the widest arc. and instapins units? I thought the maxim has a very low aoe suppress, like it only pins one squad. It's narrow cone of fire means that a unit on the edge can just run away and flank it easily.


Soviet infantry is just crappy. it can barely support the maxim squad well. That is why you get another maxim to back it up

Maxims shutting down entire sectors!?!??! Doesn't the MG42 have the widest arc. and instapins units? I thought the maxim has a very low aoe suppress, like it only pins one squad. It's narrow cone of fire means that a unit on the edge can just run away and flank it easily.


Soviet infantry is just crappy. it can barely support the maxim squad well. That is why you get another maxim to back it up

The thing with builds in games is that people will always (always) as a whole gravitate towards a method of maximum efficiency.

1v1 conscripts are often a necessity because maxims are too easily flanked and wiped when you're in a large map by yourself. But even then, every maxim is easily twice as useful in the early game as a conscript squad. Conscripts are terrible.

In 2v2 and up, the maps don't double in size when the players do. Tighter lanes, more rigid engagement areas, closer grouping. Conscripts are officially nothing but glorified grenade caddies. You don't need more than one to to clear a building or snare a vehicle. Maxims preform better as combat units in that scenario than any of the soviet infantry bar shocks.

If soviet core infantry wasn't arse wipingly poor with zero ability to scale into the late game, it would see a lot more love. But it is. Conscripts and Penals are crap at combat. Guards are crap at combat and now even button is crap (and still instantly lol-noped by smoke, unlike target weak point, lol @ button). The only unit worth having on foot these days is the ever popular shock troop.

Why bother getting units that will serve feck all utility? That's why soviet builds revolve around support weapons and other utility units. They actually preform on the battlefield. Maxims bleed less MP than conscripts while offering so much more battlefield presence out of the same building you can pump AT guns from- another downright necessity for any sort of soviet play.

I'd much rather have some more flexibility than build a third maxim in most of my games. But buying another conscript squad is literally pissing away manpower for nothing at a unit that will bleed more heavily than my maxim would anyway. What the feck would be the point?



And it's not like you can't do the exact same lol@infantry as the axis. A couple of MG42/34 overlapping each other shuts down all infantry forever laughably fast. The difference is that with other units offering more reliable firepower and flexibility, it would be silly to hamstring yourself with only setup teams. You leave yourself vulnerable to vehicles and artillery- just like with maxims.

But given the choice between vulnerability to vehicles and artillery, or losing the game because your core infantry is wank on a stick and your commander didn't bring any with him? Yeah, more maxims please.