Are Guards Ok Now?

Now that Guards buttoning has been nerfed significantly ( which was needed ) I wonder if anyone still use guards.

Are Guards still good or will they phase out to be never seen again like Su76s?

I myself wants Guards to be cheaper so they can be used like main infantry like the American riflemen like 300 manpower and they should not be dropping their ptrs rifles.

What do you guys think?

They can't fight axis elite infantry units at all, neither can't do anything to medium/heavy armor unless you have a Mark Vehicle doctrine and spam them.

It's sad but their only quality to choose them above Shocks was button. Now that it has been nerfed there's no reason to pick Guards, who doesn't have armor, can't fight against blobs and have the stupid habit of throwing their valuable weapons to the ground when they hear shots.

Guards are absolutely wasteful. Not only they are cost-ineffective, they provide the axis with some free gear.

Well if you think about it the Axis elite infantry costs significantly more than Guard squads. It would be weird if a 400 obersoldaten lose a 330 mp Guards squad.

Well if you think about it the Axis elite infantry costs significantly more than Guard squads. It would be weird if a 400 obersoldaten lose a 330 mp Guards squad.

The problem is not that Obersoldaten win the engagement, is that they absolutely RAPE guards while them drop their expensive 75 ammo DP to the ground.

Nobody expect Guards to win more expensive units, but the issue is that they don't do shit against them except losing weapons. They struggle even fighting cheaper units like LMG grens.

Bad AI, bad AT, and now useless abilities. Why should you want them?

Return guards some armor, make DP upgrade cheaper and fix that they can re-equip their lost weapon and then they will be useful again.

Price does not justify absolute superiority, and the 70 manpower difference does not compute superior firepower properly. For 70 manpower more, OKW is getting much more than they should be getting. This also means Soviet doctrinal elite infantry cannot compete against Obersoldaten at all, who are stock.

Now that Guards buttoning has been nerfed significantly ( which was needed ) I wonder if anyone still use guards.

Are Guards still good or will they phase out to be never seen again like Su76s?

No, because here's the thing:

Soviets don't have a choice in the matter. You get guards or you don't have any kind of mainline infantry at all.

No, because here's the thing:

Soviets don't have a choice in the matter. You get guards or you don't have any kind of mainline infantry at all.

Can you expand on this?

A 222 counters T1 +shocks, while guards counter 222 pretty much. So its a situational unit. You are forgetting that they are only in some doctrines that don't have shocks at the same time.

The mp drain of guards is far less than shocks and it's still better than a script. It's expensive, but getting one doesn't hurt. Spamming guards doest work, yes.

Can you expand on this?

Cons and Penals suck noodles and Shocks are assault troops not mainline infantry.

At least I assume that was his point.

No, because here's the thing:

Soviets don't have a choice in the matter. You get guards or you don't have any kind of mainline infantry at all.

Penals.

Cons are what they are as a T0 baseline unit which has part of its value invested in 2 native utility abilities, which unfortunately also causes them to suffer somewhat if shoehorned into a role as a dedicated combat unit, which they are only "average" at. They come out of the box as more utilitarian, but with comparable dps, and begin to lose as a dedicated combat unit towards later game due to lack of scaling for that role, instead forced to rely on that initial utility advantage which they carry throughout the game, alongside a better soak.

If Cons where brought inline with other early base infantry interms of combat efficiency in later game combat role upgrades, it would require a pretty massive re-structuring of Sov, especially of Sovs larger infantry units, removal of merge/oorah as native, and cause efficiency problems in relation to the ubiquitous infantry callin-options.

Guards being weapon-drop pinatas is a problem.
Can't really just stop them dropping weapons.
Can't really reduce PTRS to a single weapon with 2x efficiency.
Can't really reduce DPs to a single weapon with 2x efficiency.

I'm still a huge proponent of Penal improvement (preferably as weapon diversifiable) as the missing link in Sov mainline infantry lineup.

Cons and Penals suck noodles and Shocks are assault troops not mainline infantry.

At least I assume that was his point.

Indeed,

Anything above 2 units of Shocks start draining your mp at a ridiculous rate, forcing you to use cons (because penals have no AT). Its fair enough that you can't spam shocks effectively, BUT, Soviets need effective mainline infantry, which guards being nerfed, the don't seem to have anymore.

Penals.

Suck even worse than cons. We're not talking about what-if-relic-changed-things, we're talking about current choices and the current choice is you either have guards (quite likely because the best doctrines have them), shocks (if you are using B4s or still believe in the gimpy thing that is the IS2/KV8), or you just have snipers and maxims.

Suck even worse than cons. We're not talking about what-if-relic-changed-things, we're talking about current choices and the current choice is you either have guards (quite likely because the best doctrines have them), shocks (if you are using B4s or still believe in the gimpy thing that is the IS2/KV8), or you just have snipers and maxims.

Cruzz I don't really get why you think guards are the only option. They are pretty niche after the patch. What do you have against shocks, and why is the IS2 not effective?

Cruzz I don't really get why you think guards are the only option. They are pretty niche after the patch. What do you have against shocks, and why is the IS2 not effective?

1. Because they're in the only competitive commanders that have mark target and mark target is practically required against axis heavies in team games

2. Because shocks are extremely easily abused by all sorts of vehicles and are useless on half of the maps in the game. Their durability also drops off very rapidly towards the later game because most high damage small arms have higher than 1 penetration nowadays.

3. Because the IS2 is plain bad against OKW, all their vehicles are custom designed to abuse the weaknesses of the IS2. And Ostheer Tiger with PaK support is always superior to IS2 with ZiS support as well.

4. Because if you don't have guards you are relying entirely on ZiS for anti-tank, which is a completely unsustainable arrangement manpower wise on any map that allows for relatively easy light vehicle flanks.

I'm more comfortable with T2+Shocks than with any other build with Guards.
Guards are right now in the same tier than Cons and Penals, the Useless Infantry Tier.

If I ever pick a Guard doctrine is just for the Mark Target ability.

I was a big fan of Guards. Not bad AI power combined with punishing button if enemy stop thinking and drive into your units -> button +ZiS/SU85.
Now if enemy drives too close, he can just retreat with loss hp only.
In my opinion, nerfing Guards will also affects SU-85. The only AT stock unit. High range, very slow, easy to flank. Guards were true "guards" of SU. If Puma, Pz IV or any other unit wanted to flank it, there were always Guards to prevent that and punish for that with SU's gun. Now even buttoned vehicles encircling SU will be fast enough to avoid hit.

R.I.P. Guards + ISU doctrine.

Not to mention that old button had their counters, like smoke or just focusing fire in the immobile guards. It was not an unbeatable ability.

Strange relic logic here, nerf all the things that are decently balanced (Guards, cons (which need a buff)) whilst ignoring larger issues like Maxims and the like.

Just had a game today, guards are crap. GG relic... GG relic..