Soviet FHQ might need looked at.

Ok, I only run into this sucker occasionally but I have some serious grips.

One, instant deployment. Not the worst thing ever, but it really bugs me that I can be fighting a guy and Oh BTW I have a base here now and get a huge bonus and can reinforce.

Two, no way to decap it like in CoH1. The last guy I fought using this just rushed a very forward building right away and set up a FHQ. We forced him off, but no one could do shit about the HQ eventually I was hitting it with a LeHG but that didn't really do shit. In the mean time he had mounted 1-2 counter attacks that were an utter bitch because of the FHQ bonus. (I don't recall if he gets the bonus when the territory is decaped or cut off, but I did do that when I could. Cap zone for that territory was favorable to him and the building was more in my end.)

Three, fucking unkillable squads around the FHQ. Between the bonus and the ability to reinforce his squads are an utter bitch to force off. I had a squad of vet 2 fussilers go after a 3 man con squad. He ad just popped another (his third or fourth for the match) FHQ. Here's how his con squad faired.

3 man - 2 man - 1 man - (1 fuss lost now 4/6) - 2 man - 1 man - 2 man - 1 man - 2 man - (1 fuss lost now 3/6) - 1 man - 2 man - 1 man - 2 man - (1 fuss lost now 2/6) - molotov (fuss retreat)

True, there was a little good micro. He ran from my fuss, I chased. We ended up on opposite sides of green cover. I was trying to time a grenade to wipe the squad after it reinforced again when he got the molly off and I had to run.

Wish I had saved the replay to demonstrate and see what I could have done differently but I just launched another game instead.

Killing those 2-3 FHQs cost my ally about 200 mun. He was able to do it relatively cheaply since he had the doctrinal mortar HT and firebombed them. Not sure what we would have needed to do if he didn't as my LeHG was clearly not getting the job done.

I went for a Luchs because I figured I could just park it outside an FHQ and watch it vet up like a boss. That worked to a degree, but I got greedy and went in for a squad wipe and ate an AT nade. Then a Jackson showed up. My fussilers got an AT nade off to slow the Jackson but it was too late and the Jackson gobbled up the Luchs.

In retrospect, maybe I should have teched for a walking stucka but I was trying to push for a KT. We had done a decent job at first on my side, but the enemy crushed our other flank 4v4 and was holding a steady drain against our VPs all game. They even got deep enough to cut off fuel once or twice.

Map was... uhh, the one with the river straight horizontal, east kinda swampy, west has a decent town. Center VP on small muddy island. Fuel right next to main base, so yea, they cut deeply from the east flank.

To be fair, my grip is clearly influenced by how that game went. Still, those damn FHQs are a total bitch early on.

TL;DR: IMO ADD THE ABILITY TO DECAP A FHQ. If you need to adjust the cost lower to balance it, I agree. Right now, careless FHQ placement is impossible to punish until mid game or later.

My memory may be faulty but I think you can set it up in neutral territory as well.

You are apparently playing OKW.

Build mechanized truck, build stuka, aim at FHQ, guaranteed one shot.

And yet you complain about your opponent basically throwing away 300/60 or whatever they cost these days in addition to picking a doctrine that has zero value outside that ability?

Protip: see Urban company, ram down all buildings around your cutoff.

Urban defence became beyond useless after introduction of walking stuka, which destroys 300 mp 60fu fhq (and probably all troops around it) no matter what in first barrage. In fact, this doctrine worse than nkvd now.

Urban defence became beyond useless after introduction of walking stuka, which destroys 300 mp 60fu fhq (and probably all troops around it) no matter what in first barrage. In fact, this doctrine worse than nkvd now.

Its not like it wasn't useless way before that.
Wehr MHT can burn it down with a SINGLE incendiary round.

This is very cost effective ability if you play against complete and utter noobs and possibly worst thing you can do against anyone who have a clue about the game.

It costs as much as TIER building and can die to upgraded T0 units(flamers) or non combat units(OKW truck ramming).

Asking for it to be even more vulnerable is as brilliant idea as asking for PaK43 mobility to be nerfed.

And if your ally used 200 muni to erase 900mp and 180 fuel, then in my book its a god damn sweet deal.

Now last but not least:

You do NOT go to forum asking for nerfs on something you have met for the first time.

You go to forum asking for advices on how to play against it.

Please, please, PLEASE do not use Stuka oneshotting as an argument that FHQ is fine. I would much rather Stuka NOT oneshotting the FHQ because then this discussion can stand on its own two legs. I would much prefer OKW getting more possibilities to counter it (lol at ISGs).

FHQ either wins the game in the first several minutes, or it succumbs to a Stuka strike and the doctrine is left worthless in the late game. This all-or-nothing approach is not fun, in my opinion.

First of all, it locks the OKW player into a specific tier, negating the possibility of a medic truck until way into the mid game. Second of all, it dictates the first fuel expenditure of the OKW player.

The investment for a Stuka is much larger at 100 fuel which comes at the same time the Soviet guy accumulates 150 fuel, assuming equal map control (protip: FHQ is usually set up near chokepoints and fuel cutoffs, but let's be generous and assume equal map control). This STILL leaves the Soviet player with a 90 fuel window of opportunity, AFTER building his first tier building, and BEFORE the Stuka arrives. Show Spoiler

Is this a joke? You have a hard counter to the FHQ and it's not good enough? Who cares if it's your first fuel expenditure, you just made the other player useless for the rest of the game. It's a guaranteed win, what are you whining about.

Please, please, PLEASE do not use Stuka oneshotting as an argument that FHQ is fine. I would much rather Stuka NOT oneshotting the FHQ because then this discussion can stand on its own two legs. I would much prefer OKW getting more possibilities to counter it (lol at ISGs).

Cool. While we're at it, can we give soviets more AT at T1, because I refuse to get proper tier to get proper counters to opponents armor as well?
This is basically what you're asking for.

FHQ either wins the game in the first several minutes, or it succumbs to a Stuka strike and the doctrine is left worthless in the late game. This all-or-nothing approach is not fun, in my opinion.

Its not, that is why the doctrine is deep bottom of the "to use" doctrine list of soviet doctrines. But its how it is and nothing indicates anything will be changed, so you might as well start using proper hard counters at your disposal instead of asking for nerfs.

First of all, it locks the OKW player into a specific tier, negating the possibility of a medic truck until way into the mid game. Second of all, it dictates the first fuel expenditure of the OKW player.

First of all, it locks soviets out of useful infantry and potent armor, second of all, used early it forces soviets to use horrible infantry that doesn't scale against potent OKW one.
Third, it greatly delays soviet tiering and when placed early, basically takes away 100% of units that actually CAN fight OKW.

The investment for a Stuka is much larger at 100 fuel which comes at the same time the Soviet guy accumulates 150 fuel, assuming equal map control (protip: FHQ is usually set up near chokepoints and fuel cutoffs, but let's be generous and assume equal map control). This STILL leaves the Soviet player with a 90 fuel window of opportunity, AFTER building his first tier building, and BEFORE the Stuka arrives. Show Spoiler

Will you drive your stuka into soviet base after destroying FHQ?
No, you will keep barraging him all the game.

Why would you need other vehicle first? He will have shitty AT guns to deter it, he will have no infantry that could even start a decent fight before 8-10 minute, he will have all of his forces consolidated in a single part of the map, he will automatically loose 100% of the fights in any place that HFQ aura doesn't reach, you are not forced to keep going at him like a lemming and can go around to cut him off-your faction is designed with low resources on mind, his not.

The spoiler part is completely irrelevant, your tiering is not a side cost, FHQ is and a hefty one as well.

You're basically 100% wrong in this whole post.

all your plans of "rush a walking stuka" might work if you knew exactly what your opponent is doing. the problem is you dont know.

http://www.coh2.org/replay/22725/vs-ginnungagap-on-faymonville

so what are you supposed to do if your opponent waits for your medic truck to put down a fhq? do you wait to put down your first truck or do you always start with mechanized? either way, your early infantry game is worse off because you wont have healing or a retreat point, and the soviet player hasnt even had to do anything. just by having this commander, the okw player has to be prepared for it right away.

in my opinion, thats bullshit. its the same issue as the wc51s. you shouldnt have to drastically change your build in the opening minutes of the game based on commanders. for fhq, you have to go mechanized. for wc51s, you need a rakaten. soviet industry used to play like that and it got nerfed for that exact reason.

now before all the "adapt" responses, im not saying you should be able to spam any unit you want despite what your opponent does. but players shouldnt be forced to predict cheesy early game doctrines, especially when just guessing wrong means you probably already lost.

It's a large game of rock, paper, scissors. The "problem" is you don't know what the opponent is doing? I say that is what keeps the game new and fresh. The Soviet's are already combating an issue of very predictable game play. Being forced to adapt to the changing battle field is a core fundamental of this game in my opinion.

When im playing OKW and im seeing FHQ, im laughing. Its a single stuka shot.

It may be a bit trickier with Ostheer, and thats why its only usable vs Ostheer. But i dont like that, a doctrine should be viable against both enemy factions.

It's a large game of rock, paper, scissors. The "problem" is you don't know what the opponent is doing? I say that is what keeps the game new and fresh. The Soviet's are already combating an issue of very predictable game play. Being forced to adapt to the changing battle field is a core fundamental of this game in my opinion.

soviets are in fact the LEAST predicatable of the 4 factions. anything from t0/t1/t2 can be (and is) seen in the opening minutes of the game. compare that to wehrmacht who have pios + t1, okw who have 3 t0 units, or usa which has... rifles.

the problem is because its the opening couple minutes. look at industry before it got nerfed. you had tanks at 5-7 minutes. thats barely enough time to get out a pak even when youre rushing tech. if you didnt tech, you lost. thats your idea of fresh and fun gameplay?

It's a idea of terrible balancing.

I guess I should have been more specific. Commander selection is predictable due to to not-so-good base units. Rest assured that if he has gone FHQ that you won't be seeing any challenging armor from them late game.

You have to remember while you lost 2 Panzerfus he lost like 5/6 conscripts so you belt a lot more MP than he did, the only "problem" with FHQ is if you are busy dealing with it and he gets the rest of the map with his other units. If you can keep map control and force him in to defending the FHQ and bleed him more than he bleeds you then you have an advantage.

all your plans of "rush a walking stuka" might work if you knew exactly what your opponent is doing. the problem is you dont know.

http://www.coh2.org/replay/22725/vs-ginnungagap-on-faymonville

so what are you supposed to do if your opponent waits for your medic truck to put down a fhq? do you wait to put down your first truck or do you always start with mechanized? either way, your early infantry game is worse off because you wont have healing or a retreat point, and the soviet player hasnt even had to do anything. just by having this commander, the okw player has to be prepared for it right away.

I've beaten the FHQ both times someone has used one against me with the medic truck. It's pretty simple really, because of how insane the aoe suppress on mg34s are, you just set up one with firing line on the fhq, and fire on the fhq building to suppress EVERYTHING around it. Then you can just push him off with whatever infantry you have, and leave the thing standing there until you can bother crushing the house down with a truck or whatever your preferred method of collapsing buildings without stukas is.

all your plans of "rush a walking stuka" might work if you knew exactly what your opponent is doing. the problem is you dont know.

http://www.coh2.org/replay/22725/vs-ginnungagap-on-faymonville

so what are you supposed to do if your opponent waits for your medic truck to put down a fhq? do you wait to put down your first truck or do you always start with mechanized? either way, your early infantry game is worse off because you wont have healing or a retreat point, and the soviet player hasnt even had to do anything. just by having this commander, the okw player has to be prepared for it right away.

in my opinion, thats bullshit. its the same issue as the wc51s. you shouldnt have to drastically change your build in the opening minutes of the game based on commanders. for fhq, you have to go mechanized. for wc51s, you need a rakaten. soviet industry used to play like that and it got nerfed for that exact reason.

now before all the "adapt" responses, im not saying you should be able to spam any unit you want despite what your opponent does. but players shouldnt be forced to predict cheesy early game doctrines, especially when just guessing wrong means you probably already lost.

I think that is the hallmark of a good RTS game. Both teams do not know what each other are doing (unless it is starcraft where you can scout). Good adaptation and counterplay is important in a strategy game. Both teams really do not know what the other is doing unless it is really obvious. There shouldn't be a "one build fits all" sort of thing (although there should be "safe" builds).

RTS is real time strategy, we all have to be prepared for any strategy, conventional or unconventional. If we already know what our opponents are going to make, prior to the game even starting, then the game wouldn't even be a RTS

You're basically 100% wrong in this whole post.

Well, not all of us can be as infallible as the great Katitof.

Did you misinterpret my post as complaining against the inability to counter FHQ? It was a lament to how it promotes the worst kind of rock paper scizzor gameplay.

OKW has a single ultra-hard counter to the forward HQ (Stuka), this hard counter comes in several minutes AFTER the FHQ, and if you haven't won by then or denied enough fuel to prevent this counter from appearing you lose the game. This is utter bullshit. I WANT Stuka to not 1-shot the FHQ. I WANT to have other counters. I WANT this commander to be more than a one-trick pony.

The aforementioned single ultra-hard counter requires extremely specific teching (you're right, I'll just postpone setting my first truck down until I see T34/85s or ISUs, then I can be sure he didn't go Urban Warfare), to counter an extremely specific strategy, which basically impoverishes the meta when this commander is used.

To illustrate : if your enemy is spamming MG42s you can go for mortars, snipers, shocks, m3s, conscript spam as SU; or for fast grenade tech as US, or rush light armour, etc.
Similarly, Ostheer counters to FHQ include mortars, flamer Pios, Spearhead doctrine, flame halftrack etc.

OKW counters to FHQ? Lolstuka.


I suppose you can exploit the SWS crush if you manage to chase off the infantry first.

This is not a problem just for OKW, it's a problem for the Soviet Union as well.

FHQ against OKW doesn't seem like a good idea. As a rule, you want to contain the OKW player and deny him fuel so that he can't bring his awesome late game to bear. With FHQ doctrine, not only do you have no elite infantry or call-ins of your own, forcing you to make do with conscripts and T-34s all game long, but you usually concentrate around the building, giving a savvy OKW player free reign to get his fuel. Especially since you delay your own teching by, what, is it 50 fuel now? That's a major investment.

Plus, even without the Stuka you can use the ISG and MG34 to great effect against a FHQ. Worst comes to worst, T3 is only 40 fuel away and comes with enough AT that you won't really have to worry about T-34s anyway.

ITT: lolstuka. noob.

I get it.

My tech path was not conducive to getting a stuka. Nor did it need to be. I had an ally firebombing the FHQs with the mortar HT. Also, these are mid game counters.

Not ITT: Addressing my points regarding how Soviets can be utterly careless placing it because OKW/Wher cannot decap. Thus a soviet player has free reign to plop it anywhere and instantly gain a stronghold that is damn near impossible to deal with early game. Here, stuka does not apply.

I did forget how costly an FHQ is. At 300 mp and 60 fuel, it's a helluva investment and restricts the soviet player to conscripts if bought early.

I would favor a cost reduction to the FHQ and the ability to decap it. Maybe 200 mp 20 fuel (buffs may need looked at too for this price). This actually favors soviet use as even though a walking stuka can decimate it, the investment lost is substantially smaller. The trade off to give advantage to the wher/OKW is that if a soviet player is careless in FHQ use it can be decaped (ala CoH1). This means that insanely forward FHQs for an early game pin are not as viable unless the soviet player can hold them. Is sucks to force someone off and just stare at it, knowing he will return and there nothing you can do to kill it.

Not a fan of instant set up either, but I've gotta pick and choose my battles, so that can stay.