General Balance Hopes Part V

I broke up my hopes in multiple parts to promote narrowed good discussion with less derailing.

DISCLAIMER:
Please keep the discussion around these 4 topics. Remember the fallowing:

Just because A is unfair does not make B unfair, they are two different entities

Just because A is fair does not make B fair, they are two different entities

There is asymmetric balance in this game, do not compare two units directly in similar roles
(think about everything, timing, cost, role, multi purpose, etc)

Keep anything to do with fan boys out of my thread, there is no place for it

This thread is dedicated to OKW

They are probably the best designed faction currently if it were not for being so susceptible to Soviet cheese. You get cheap access to all Tiers, pretty much great stuff in all of them, and the trucks provide something valuable to the game such as repair or flak gun.


Kubel could probably use a bit more love with a slight health increase and better performance on the move to help deal with Soviet sniper teams

I honestly think the infantry gun needs a slight tone down, This gun is simply an MVP every game. It has great vet scaling and can direct fire against light vehicles. Its simply fantastic and probably a little over preforming its cost

Inferred sights on the Obers is way too much. You will loose a squad in a blink of an eye with their ignoring cover bullets. The cost should come down significantly and so should the effectiveness

Lets face it, the OKW puma is way over preforming. I think the Osheer one always has as well, but this one is better for whatever reason like the panther. well microed it can beat most heavy armor. I have developed a strat as Ostheer vs rifle company that relies on pumas and paks to stun lock tanks in front of AT guns that vet up and then re stun them. The OKW have no pak40s, but the Puma is still ridiculously effective for an armored car with a light AT gun on it. I think getting rid of the non vetted smokes is a great starting point for slight nerf to the unit. It will probably need a slight health decrease to make it more risky to use because for some reason it has almost medium armor amount of health.

As much as I am glad Relic allowed the OKW to have full munitions income, it makes panzer Fussiliers over the top. you pay for a 6 man gren squad that can have 3 G43s with up to 5 stars of Vet. They already stomp on rifles for similar cost, then add the G43 upgrade and they vet up like crazy. You dont even need obers to stand up to M1919s because these squads are such monsters. I am suggesting a slight DPS adjustment.

Can we please reduce the damage the stuka fuss does? Panzerwerfer and Katyushyas got nerfed for a reason. its simply not fun to loose so much to the point and click of a moderately priced mobile artillery piece. Plus this one has even less RNG as you draw the line.

People complain that the reketenwerfer is bad, but for how cheap it is I think people are just hoping for this little guy to act for a pak40 while they save for a panther or a KT. These guys and Pshrecks are good at pushing back armor but they alone should not be relied on to hold back all armor. It makes me cringe when people complain their shreck blob and reketenwerfers didnt hold back T34-85s in time for their KT or panther to arrive. They have such great vet bonuses and their ability to be placed in buildings makes them really great on other maps compared to other AT guns.

PanzerJagers need a slight adjustment in lower DPS. They are incredibly great like the Infantry gun and are probably over preforming for their cost.

um. Infiltration grenades? how did relic miss this? They are the same grenades at 10 munitions that assault grenadiers get for 45. whhhaat?. So they should definately not save you munitions for a just as effective, arguably more effective grenade. I suggest putting them at 30 munitions. My reasons is that the timer counts down for usage while not in combat. This means you can use them, retreat back to base for health, go capture a point and your set to go and throw another 10 munitions grenade (depends on the point, when I timed it, the timer takes getting reinforced and a fuel/ munitions point).

Pak 43 for both Ostheer and OKW needs a significant range increase to make it useful.

OKW flak halftrack needs a little looking into. It for some reason has huge issues actually hitting anything other than debris or the ground, a problem that many tanks share but it is by far the worst on this unit. It also needs to have its set up time to match the M15. Its basically unusable at this point because its set up and tear down is so long

This faction has a great design that unfortunately gets over looked most of the time do to "allies cheese". the problem is that if said stuff gets addressed OKW will shoot strait to the top do to its great preforming core units and fantastic call in infantry. Should USF be more balanced out in early and late game, as well as Soviet cheese being addressed the OKW will destroy any competition infantry wise and through their faction design go into a dominating late game. It might seem like this page is devoted to nerfs, but it is out of necessity for the future when allies get addressed. Please do not take this the wrong way as in me completely hating on the OKW

Are you an idiot? You have 5 threads Spamming the forums. You scum bag.

Leave this forum. like u promised

"I honestly think the infantry gun needs a slight tone down, This gun is simply an MVP every game. It has great vet scaling and can direct fire against light vehicles. Its simply fantastic and probably a little over preforming its cost."

Maybe I'm using it wrong, but as far as I can tell, it's generally less effective than the ost 80mm mortar, costs almost twice as much, can't retreat, and can barely kill anything because the splash damage is so low.


"Can we please reduce the damage the stuka fuss does? Panzerwerfer and Katyushyas got nerfed for a reason. its simply not fun to loose so much to the point and click of a moderately priced mobile artillery piece. Plus this one has even less RNG as you draw the line."

They were nerfed practically to extinction, which was bad, but that's not a great reason to also ruin the Stuka. Why not just buff the Pwerfere and the Kat? Okay I know that doubling the stats of the Kat didn't work, but surely there's a middle ground?

"PanzerJagers need a slight adjustment in lower DPS. They are incredibly great like the Infantry gun and are probably over preforming for their cost."

What are panzer jaegers?

"I honestly think the infantry gun needs a slight tone down, This gun is simply an MVP every game. It has great vet scaling and can direct fire against light vehicles. Its simply fantastic and probably a little over preforming its cost."

Maybe I'm using it wrong, but as far as I can tell, it's generally less effective than the ost 80mm mortar, costs almost twice as much, can't retreat, and can barely kill anything because the splash damage is so low.


"Can we please reduce the damage the stuka fuss does? Panzerwerfer and Katyushyas got nerfed for a reason. its simply not fun to loose so much to the point and click of a moderately priced mobile artillery piece. Plus this one has even less RNG as you draw the line."

They were nerfed practically to extinction, which was bad, but that's not a great reason to also ruin the Stuka. Why not just buff the Pwerfere and the Kat? Okay I know that doubling the stats of the Kat didn't work, but surely there's a middle ground?

"PanzerJagers need a slight adjustment in lower DPS. They are incredibly great like the Infantry gun and are probably over preforming for their cost."

What are panzer jaegers?

The jager recon troops from scavange

Panzerwerfer and katushya got nerfed quite a bit (they are still good at what they are supposed to kill which is static weapons crews) because in the past they suffered from Vcoh syndrom where mobile artillery murdered everything too cheaply and with little counter play. It was simply not fun to loose half of your army in the blink of an eye when two panzerwerfers staggered their shots. Remember the over buffed katushya? that is what the old panzerwerfer did and katushyas were not far behind

Yeah the stuka is god damn powerful. It basically knocks off half health of any medium tank. Tone it down please or buff panzerwerfer (don't see many people build this) and kat (but not to the levels in July).

I have added a section on the OKW flak halftrack because I forgot to mention it

The jager recon troops from scavange

Panzerwerfer and katushya got nerfed quite a bit (they are still good at what they are supposed to kill which is static weapons crews) because in the past they suffered from Vcoh syndrom where mobile artillery murdered everything too cheaply and with little counter play. It was simply not fun to loose half of your army in the blink of an eye when two panzerwerfers staggered their shots. Remember the over buffed katushya? that is what the old panzerwerfer did and katushyas were not far behind

Gotcha. Thought you meant those, or Volks with shrecks.

I dunno, I think they got overnerfed. They take forever to fire and rarely kill anything so I wouldn't want the Stuka to get moved there. If it's a balance issue it's with the Pwerfer and Kat mainly, though I'm not saying the Stuka shouldn't get nerfed, just that it definitely should not be nerfed into the state of the current Pwerfer and Kat. Pwerfer and Kat should get some buffs.

Also I think the title of this thread is really confusing. Why not just change it to BHP V: OKW ?

Mostly because it requires a mod to do that, and I do not want to waste their time

First post, WOOT!

I honestly think the infantry gun needs a slight tone down, This gun is simply an MVP every game. It has great vet scaling and can direct fire against light vehicles. Its simply fantastic and probably a little over preforming its cost

It feels like the inf gun is probably where it should be but needs a bit more splash damage. If you bombard or use it at range it pretty much just intimidates the opposing side. Its never claimed mvp in any of my games despite surviving almost every match. Compare this thing to the Scott for the USF? Granted these 2 are in different tech trees but that M8 is ridiculously powerful and accurate. Ive lost more squads while retreating and getting hit by the troop seeking shells than any other tank.

Lets face it, the OKW puma is way over preforming.

I read ppl saying this and I just don't see it. That said, I cant get the mech tree to work for me AT ALL. Puma seems to go down too easy and gets taken out by just about any and all medium tanks. Its great vs stuarts and t70s though! But how long does that phase last. I definitely need help n practice using this thing.

Can we please reduce the damage the stuka fuss does? Panzerwerfer and Katyushyas got nerfed for a reason. its simply not fun to loose so much to the point and click of a moderately priced mobile artillery piece. Plus this one has even less RNG as you draw the line.

Reducing damage it does to armor seems fair. Dmg to at guns and maxims seems good, seeing as this is the only real way okw can deal with these threats. Stukas are very expensive and should do lots of damage. That said, so should the kat and the pzwerfer too. Never see these untis anymore.

People complain that the reketenwerfer is bad, but for how cheap it is I think people are just hoping for this little guy to act for a pak40 while they save for a panther or a KT.

Agreed! The fact that this thing is available in T0 and cost so little means it SHOULDNT be anything near a pak 40. It fills in an at gap that the okw isnt desperate to have (shreks).

I want to mention volks but im still on the fence about them. The fact that they're so cheap is their only saving grace. Not too thrilled that conscripts can maul them up close but i guess scripts cost a little more? Their survivability needs just a slight buff it feels like. Their dmg seems good, esp w the shrek ability.

@Kubel: problem is that it really needs good micro to shine. On some 2v2 maps, double kubel opening is a bit annoying (god have mercy on your soul if you don't go T1 as soviets).
When they fix the go forward bug for vehicles, i think this unit should be on a better state since it has less survivability than other light vehicles.

If you aim for a more "light vehicle" aproach rather than a supression platform (if you want to increase performance on the move) the other one should be tweak. Basically increasing the time for it to start supressing.

@Puma: the combination of all its abilities/stats is making it overperform. It just need a slight adjustment on it's survivability capabilities.

@Stuka: i would rather reduce a bit the cooldown for OH/SU mobile arties.

DISCLAIMER:
Please keep the discussion around these 4 topics. Remember the fallowing:

Just because A is unfair does not make B unfair, they are two different entities

Just because A is fair does not make B fair, they are two different entities

--------------------------------

Can we please reduce the damage the stuka fuss does? Panzerwerfer and Katyushyas got nerfed for a reason. its simply not fun to loose so much to the point and click of a moderately priced mobile artillery piece. Plus this one has even less RNG as you draw the line.

Okay...So the nerf on A made B unfair?

First off, "moderately priced" @ 100 fuel?
For OKW that's a huge delay in any other vehicle.
Stuka only If the enemy is not spamming specific units (con spam/maxim spam etc) then there is no need for the Stuka. Otherwise I'm getting a puma or rushing a luchs.

Also, in regards to the Infl grenades. They're doctrinal...If you want them at 45 munis then I rather them not be part of the doctorine, I'm sacrificing a "skill" from a doctrine to have those grenades. I'd much rather have Panzer Tactician or something else as a "skill" as opposed to 45 muni infl grenades.

Okay...So the nerf on A made B unfair?

First off, "moderately priced" @ 100 fuel?
For OKW that's a huge delay in any other vehicle.
Stuka only If the enemy is not spamming specific units (con spam/maxim spam etc) then there is no need for the Stuka. Otherwise I'm getting a puma or rushing a luchs.

Also, in regards to the Infl grenades. They're doctrinal...If you want them at 45 munis then I rather them not be part of the doctorine, I'm sacrificing a "skill" from a doctrine to have those grenades. I'd much rather have smoke screen as a "skill" as opposed to 45 muni infl grenades.

So what, Assault grenediers grenades are not doctrinal? you might want to rethink your statement. Plus I said they should be 30 munitions

As for the Stuka You could consider the panzerwerfer the most expensive piece of mobil artillery when you consider the tech price. also you mention that the Stuka is only useful when your opponent is spamming things such as... (con spam/maxim spam etc) which pretty much means if your opponent is getting units the stuka is useful. Nerfs on A and B made them reasonable while they have not patched the stuka yet which way outperforms any form of on map artillery at this point

So what, Assault grenediers grenades are not doctrinal? you might want to rethink your statement. Plus I said they should be 30 munitions

As for the Stuka You could consider the panzerwerfer the most expensive piece of mobil artillery when you consider the tech price. also you mention that the Stuka is only useful when your opponent is spamming things such as... (con spam/maxim spam etc) which pretty much means if your opponent is getting units the stuka is useful. Nerfs on A and B made them reasonable while they have not patched the stuka yet which way outperforms any form of on map artillery at this point

What statement do I need to rethink?
Fair enough, 30 minutions...still just as bad, I'd rather that doctrinal skill be replaced with something else.
Assault grens are doctrinal, you're getting a unit that is doctrinal, not the grenades. The infiltration grenades on the doctrinal unit are different than infiltration grenades that are a doctrinal skill for all units. It doesn't give me an extra unit to pic from.
I would agree that 10 muni is too cheap if assgrens got them, on top of the fact that they're doctrinal units that require no build time.

As for the Bolbed part of your text, there you go again comparing A to B being a reason why one needs a nerf...
You're comparing tech price of 2 different factions. A panzerwerfer comes out of T4, you can rush it or not but odds are, you've already built a P4 or stug or something along those lines.
With OKW, you either get a flak, a stuka, a puma or fast Luchs...
It's not a choice of which 2 or 3 you want. You sacrifice the entire game on which unit you will purchase first with your fuel. Then if you do well, you'll be able to get your panther or a puma etc...If you're stuka/puma dies asap, unless you make an awesome comeback, kiss the game goodbye.

@QuicksandGM if it was possible, wouldn't it be better if it cost 5muni for each Grenade tossed ?

Right now the cost feels a bit silly and i don't think anyone would complaine if it was rise to 20. So it's not a "spam this ability whenever i have the chance of".

@QuicksandGM if it was possible, wouldn't it be better if it cost 5muni for each Grenade tossed ?

Right now the cost feels a bit silly and i don't think anyone would complaine if it was rise to 20. So it's not a "spam this ability whenever i have the chance of".

5 Muni would make it 25 muni for the whole squad.
Too much IMO.

My issue with increasing it is that then it becomes worthless as a doctrinal skill.
Why have a 25-30 muni doctrinal grenade when I could use that doctrinal skill space for something else, and just use the regular grenade on the volks...

Again...I'd rather have something like Signal relay or emergency repair or panzer tactician or something else...ANYTHING else other than a 25-30 muni doctrinal grenade.

I don't play as OKW but here are my thoughts after playing every single game against them. (Currently in 2vs2 you only see double OKW teams)

Kubel could probably use a bit more love with a slight health increase and better performance on the move to help deal with Soviet sniper teams

Kubel needs a improved pathing. It's a good unit, but all its good things got eclipsed when it starts to do retarded moves.

I honestly think the infantry gun needs a slight tone down, This gun is simply an MVP every game. It has great vet scaling and can direct fire against light vehicles. Its simply fantastic and probably a little over preforming its cost

I think infantry gun is fine. It doesn't need a nerf.

Inferred sights on the Obers is way too much. You will loose a squad in a blink of an eye with their ignoring cover bullets. The cost should come down significantly and so should the effectiveness

Obers are fine, but ignoring cover is a stupid mechanic that should be removed.

Lets face it, the OKW puma is way over preforming. I think the Osheer one always has as well, but this one is better for whatever reason like the panther. well microed it can beat most heavy armor.

Agree, it overperforms. I suggest less penetration and smoke moved to vet 1.

panzer Fussiliers

I don't have any problem dealing with them as soviet.

Can we please reduce the damage the stuka fuss does?

The unit overperforms if compared with other mobile artillery. Instead of nerfing Stuka, I'll buff katyusha and pzwerfer. Maybe less cooldown between barrages for both.

reketenwerfer

Raketen is fine. Maybe it'd need to shoot a little faster.

Infiltration grenades

Yes, they need an ammo increased price.

Pak 43 for both Ostheer and OKW needs a significant range increase to make it useful.

I don't know. I don't see many of them in my games.

OKW flak halftrack needs a little looking into. It for some reason has huge issues actually hitting anything other than debris or the ground, a problem that many tanks share but it is by far the worst on this unit. It also needs to have its set up time to match the M15. Its basically unusable at this point because its set up and tear down is so long

It needs a shorter set up and maybe an armor increase. It dies too fast.


And I'll add that Jadgtiger should be revised. The unit would be fine if OKW infantry wasn't so powerful, but Jadgtiger negates any allied tank play and then Obers and elite infantry just rape all remaining forces. Jadtiger forces soviet to choose an ISU doctrine, which is another tank that should be nerfed.
Try to see how many T34/76s you need to destroy a slightly supported Jadgtiger, even with Mark Vehicle and good flanking.
Such monster units are the reason you only see call-in tanks when playing against allies.

I agree with Greeb about the Jagdtiger. It wrecks all tanks, which is okay, but OKW infantry is very strong plus schreck volks make quick work of your flanking tanks

Lets face it, the OKW puma is way over preforming. I think the Osheer one always has as well, but this one is better for whatever reason like the panther. well microed it can beat most heavy armor. I have developed a strat as Ostheer vs rifle company that relies on pumas and paks to stun lock tanks in front of AT guns that vet up and then re stun them. The OKW have no pak40s, but the Puma is still ridiculously effective for an armored car with a light AT gun on it. I think getting rid of the non vetted smokes is a great starting point for slight nerf to the unit. It will probably need a slight health decrease to make it more risky to use because for some reason it has almost medium armor amount of health.

Strongly disagree, not only does OKW heavily crutch on the Puma for it's AT, but it's not as bad as everyone says it is. It has 400 health and does 120 damage, a medium tank has 640 and does 160 damage. It takes a Puma 5 shots to kill a T-34/76, but can only take 3 before it does. You need to micro it or pray to the RNG Gods to reliably beat a T-34/76. Also the Puma's armour is so light, a Sherman HE round can punch through it at any range, so you don't need to switch off HE to fight 'em. In fact since HE rounds are more accurate, they're actually better for fighting Pumas.

People complain that the reketenwerfer is bad, but for how cheap it is I think people are just hoping for this little guy to act for a pak40 while they save for a panther or a KT. These guys and Pshrecks are good at pushing back armor but they alone should not be relied on to hold back all armor. It makes me cringe when people complain their shreck blob and reketenwerfers didnt hold back T34-85s in time for their KT or panther to arrive. They have such great vet bonuses and their ability to be placed in buildings makes them really great on other maps compared to other AT guns.

I don't see much use for Raketenwerfers other than rear-echelon AT support, for when someone punches through your frontline. I don't expect them to be a Pak, but I'd like them to be useful in some way. Their survivability is garbage, their range is short, and their mobility is no higher than any other AT gun. The only good thing about them is the low cost which almost makes them worth getting, and the ability to put them in buildings.


I would like to add that the Flak Emplacement is useless, no wonder nobody uses them! They have worse suppression than an MG 34 or Bunker, and if you have even light cover, you won't get suppressed or take any damage. I've had Penals walk into sight, cross a stream, and crawl up to the gun, crawl away a little (derp AI?), crawl back, throw a satchel charge, and boom. Then they stand up almost immediately and capture the sector. I myself walked up to one using only a wooden fence as cover, and threw a molotov on it, then walked away. I took no damage and didn't get suppressed. Worthless!

Strongly disagree, not only does OKW heavily crutch on the Puma for it's AT, but it's not as bad as everyone says it is. It has 400 health and does 120 damage, a medium tank has 640 and does 160 damage. It takes a Puma 5 shots to kill a T-34/76, but can only take 3 before it does. You need to micro it or pray to the RNG Gods to reliably beat a T-34/76. Also the Puma's armour is so light, a Sherman HE round can punch through it at any range, so you don't need to switch off HE to fight 'em. In fact since HE rounds are more accurate, they're actually better for fighting Pumas.

The issue with Puma is that it's unkillable. Its speed and smoke makes it too good for incursions against enemy armor. Also, it does a good job against infantry too.

And I would like to know the fire rate of Puma compared with T34/76, if anyone one have the stats.