General Balance Hopes Part III

I broke up my hopes in multiple parts to promote narrowed good discussion with less derailing.

DISCLAIMER:
Please keep the discussion around these 4 topics. Remember the fallowing:

Just because A is unfair does not make B unfair, they are two different entities

Just because A is fair does not make B fair, they are two different entities

There is asymmetric balance in this game, do not compare two units directly in similar roles
(think about everything, timing, cost, role, multi purpose, etc)

Keep anything to do with fan boys out of my thread, there is no place for it

This is probably the most debated topic; Soviet and its faction.

Now this faction as a whole according to Relic is supposed to have a pricey but very effective combined arms. Unfortunately this is not the case, and I would like to point out like many others have in the past such as Napalm that the biggest reason is that Soviet core infantry is abysmal.

So even in top level games you see similar things, mainly never a balanced unit comp. usually games revolve around one or two main units (generally a call in unit and snipers or maxims) to hold your opponent off and bleed him of manpower because Penals and conscripts scale so poorly. OKW and Ostheer combined arms are incredibly effective along with their core infantry which do so well.

Soviets are really in a hard spot concerning balance. If the cheese is nerfed then Soviets are left with an army that pales terribly in comparison to the Axis factions. On the other hand if the core infantry are given defined roles and better scaling Soviets will dominate even harder. I honestly do not know how to fix it. Nerf soviet weapons teams because they are 6 man and we have the 2nd month of release where T2 is literally dead. Nerf sniper teams rather hard and T1 drops out because T2 is a much more reliable platform to base an army around.

Units that need help:
SU76 needs to get a performance similar to the StuE in order to balance out T4, We might actually see players getting it again should the SU-76 provide some useful AI

SU-85 needs to have its price lowered slightly to match its much weaker preformance than the JagdP4.

ISU-152 needs to be nerfed back to pre march deployment days. Better to have a weak super heavy tank than an OP game ruin-er

I would argue the T70 needs to be slightly cheaper in fuel (not a whole lot)

Conscripts and penals need to have a more diverse role

KV2 is not terribly great for its huge cost, but I suppose its in a good spot considering it could be another ISU

Maxim needs some slight adjustment. There are multiple ways to lesson Maxim spam ever so slightly, I'll leave this one open ended

The sniper should really just be a cut and paste version of the Ostheer sniper. Two men is simply too powerful. Now Relic is not going to touch them in this regard, but I do suggest making the vet ability waaayyy shorter

Dammit google chrome! you copied my last title can some one change it to
General Balance Hopes Part III??

Topic Updated.

I say maxim go to 4-5 men. As someone said before, an Mg team shouldn't be shot at anyway. Buff the penal battalion to be long range shooters and conscripts get a pps43 upgrade at t3/t4. I agree with the isu 152 part, though i believe the march deployment isu was the best. Had a huge explosion but it could still miss. How about letting su76 change from he to ap round and vice versa? Sry typed this on an ipad. Will organise this post later.

About the T70, we have three main issues that make the unit useless right now:

1) Too fuel expensive. Everyone prefer to wait for T34 instead.

2) Too many AI units. Why waste more MP/Fuel in another weak AI unit when everything soviets have does well against enemy infantry? Even soviet ATgun does a great job against infantry!!!

3) Autorepair ability. Expensive and useless, it can't even repair the damage produced by a Faust.

Problem number 1 can be tweaked and number 3 can be fixed, but problem number 2 only can be solved moving T70 to T4 where it would be much more useful protecting SU85 and Katyushas from infantry flanks and ATguns.

About SU76, it should be removed from the game and replaced by KV1 in T3.

Now this faction as a whole according to Relic is supposed to have a pricey but very effective combined arms.

Nope. It´s design to play with 1 low tier and one late Tier most of the time. They have specialized units tiers which are better than the enemy one but lacks flexibity. Their words.


Regarding units (in order

Cons: This is kinda tricky. I don´t think that we need a lategame DPS buff, i would rather see some T3/T4 timewise mp reinforce cost lower for them.

Penals: they need a huge change. It's been discussed here for a while, from tweaking the weapon profile, making them more "leet", giving them upgrades, etc.

Snipers: i think getting the 2nd guy killed should have a higher penalty. Call it reinforce or actually stats wise. From losing LOS or even not be able to shoot.
INCREASE munition cost of sprint and reduce time.

Maxims: if we are going the route of reducing crew number, there has to be other changes. Give it teleport retreat magic, spread the people, increase deploy time, increase width. Basically making it a mirror MG.

Zis: i still don't see why it's vet ability was ninja nerfed.

SU85: i feel on the same way with the MG42. With vet they are great. Vet0-1 on the current meta is a bit dull.


T70: is a bit too expensive fuel wise. It should repair damage from a faust. It should either repair slower or not in the move.
Su76: HUGE changes needed.

PD: if this 2 units are swapped from tiers, i would rather see them practically as now.

Relic said the Soviets are supposed to have an expensive yet highly costly combined arms, hece why most people go for one true and thus inflexible

Relic said the Soviets are supposed to have an expensive yet highly costly combined arms, hece why most people go for one true and thus inflexible

If we are talking on low tiers, the new changes have make it a bit more affordable to go T1 > T2 (you won't do the opposite unless you just want to get for some reason snipers) but that puts you way back on the teching race leaving you with only the option of going Call in tanks.
I will say it again, theres a difference between costly (German T4) and not designed for.

"The Soviet's are designed to lack flexibility relative to the Germans. You aren't meant to get more than 1 late tier building." -PQumsieh

This is the reason why on 2v2, Soviets synergize perfectly.

i am guessing that is why their tech cost for T3 and T4 are so damn expensive. However, right now T4 doesn't seem worth it. Only nice thing there is Kat. SU85 is meh and very expensive.

If reduce the fuel cost of T70 and SU76,plz increase the fuel cost of soviet T3/T4.
That is why this should be done:

Update April 24th, 2014:

Pacing and Tech Progression
The higher cost on the T70 and SU-76 this update meant that a lower cost on T3 and T4 could be implemented.

Tankoviy Battalion Command
Manpower cost from 275 to 240
Fuel from 140 to 120

Mechanized Armor Kampaneya
Manpower cost from 275 to 240
Fuel from 140 to 120

I say maxim go to 4-5 men. As someone said before, an Mg team shouldn't be shot at anyway. Buff the penal battalion to be long range shooters and conscripts get a pps43 upgrade at t3/t4. I agree with the isu 152 part, though i believe the march deployment isu was the best. Had a huge explosion but it could still miss. How about letting su76 change from he to ap round and vice versa? Sry typed this on an ipad. Will organise this post later.

Relic confirmed on latest live stream. that soviet crew weapons will keep the same number of crew members.

They also announced a major infantry patch soon...

For the T70 and SU76, swap them between their respective buildings. T70 becomes far more useful in T4 without any buffs and the SU76 can be better balanced to fill it's new position/role in T3.

Everything else, I pretty much agree.

I would love the changes to cons/penals to be that:

Cons would be the most basic unit that you would get T0. Works early/mid game but does not scale very well late game.

Penals would be elite unit (as some already suggested) and they would be decent at early game but when vetted they would become good (read useful). Right now they're really niche unit that I used to use a few patches ago.

T1 is just bit weird right now. If you don't have good success with that you are really late for mid game.

I like Penals the way they are, they just need to be more cost-effective. I don't want Penals to be long range units, because that goes entirely against the entire purpose of the SVT. They just need to be better at what they do, assault and defense clearing. Maybe Penals could benefit from reduced suppression or something, because the only thing more intimidating than the gun in your face is the one in your back

If reduce the fuel cost of T70 and SU76,plz increase the fuel cost of soviet T3/T4.
That is why this should be done:

Update April 24th, 2014:

Pacing and Tech Progression
The higher cost on the T70 and SU-76 this update meant that a lower cost on T3 and T4 could be implemented.

Tankoviy Battalion Command
Manpower cost from 275 to 240
Fuel from 140 to 120

Mechanized Armor Kampaneya
Manpower cost from 275 to 240
Fuel from 140 to 120

Yea, the logic behind this argument is simply killing.

"To allow for slightly cheaper cars, we have greatly increased the gas prices"

Make the tech cheaper and perhaps increase the cost for call-ins? maybe that will give incentive to people to tech up.

1. buff SU85 a little bit
2. Change SU76 somehow
3. Change cons and penals to help them out