General Balance Hopes Part I

I decided to try and narrow the topics in order to prevent extreme derailing.

This topic includes some minor tweaks to the Ostheer:

1) call ins are supposed to be addressed in the near future, but Ostheer tech is still some what expensive. I think T1, BP2, T3 are all appropriately priced. Now BF1 is a little expensive. Since release of WFA there has been a noticeable lack in early game that has never existed before US, and in fact it is the way the tech is layed out which is the problem. Now I have noticed only a slight adjustment is needed: bring down BP1 cost by 5-10 fuel. This minor change will have a positive effect in aiding Ostheer against lieutenant tech which in many cases is why Ostheer players struggle so much, mainly they have no early enough answer to the fast light vehicles. This small adjustment will allow a Pak or 222 access slightly earlier which is crucial in holding off the USF massive early game advantage. Another positive side to this adjustment is in the Ostheer vs Soviet match up. The fuel reduction allows for an earlier crucial 222 to aid in dealing with sniper teams (arguably the biggest thorns in players sides) as well as for fighting back against maxim spams. in cases of Con spam Panzer grenadiers can be accessed earlier and when used correctly are a powerhouse against the garbage Soviet core infantry.

2) T4 and BP4 are too too expensive. Now I am not the most proficient with the numbers so some one else will have to suggest just how much to bring it down in price. All three units in T4 are pretty good in terms of performance. The panther needs to match the OKW stats.

3) Ostheer sniper needs a little help in terms of survival. Right now you sneeze in its direction aaaaaannnddd its gone. Maybe give it 1.2 armor or a buff in its reduced incoming accuracy.

4) I do like the position that Panzer grenadiers are in right now, no longer the terminators that they were at release. I do think their survival got nerfed a bit too much. I suggest making the reduced incoming accuracy ever so slightly.

Please keep the discussion around these 4 topics. Remember the fallowing:

Just because A is unfair does not make B unfair, they are two different entities

Just because A is fair does not make B fair, they are two different entities

There is asymmetric balance in this game, do not compare two units directly in similar roles
(think about everything, timing, cost, role, multi purpose, etc)

Keep anything to do with fan boys out of my thread, there is no place for it

1- While Tier/BP cost needs to be adjusted, mp wise at early game and mp/fuel on T4 while also some tweaks on price/performance on some units, i still think that the cost of BP and tiers should be swapped. BP being cheap while the building being more expensive.

2-^

3- 64± hp (other units have 80hp). It´s going to be more consistent.

4- They suffer from DPS drop. I think it should be good if they split part of it´s -29% RA from vet2 with vet1.

I knew u were soviet biased on ur position regarding panthers and panzergrenadiers.U have expanded on nearly every single soviet unit in its balance thread..just glossed over most of the dead ostheer units.
Yeah right man,soviets are crap without cheese,usf are crap,but ostheehr can happily stay a 1 tank 1 infantry unit like forever.Hypocrisy at its best.Where is e8 in ur american 'balance thread'.

I knew u were soviet biased on ur position regarding panthers and panzergrenadiers.U have expanded on nearly every single soviet unit in its balance thread..just glossed over most of the dead ostheer units.
Yeah right man,soviets are crap without cheese,usf are crap,but ostheehr can happily stay a 1 tank 1 infantry unit like forever.Hypocrisy at its best.Where is e8 in ur american 'balance thread'.

Panther Might need a slight fuel decrease but the problem lies not in the unit itself but rather the BP3 and tech building costs are way too high. As for your bias complaint please leave that out of this thread. It has nothing to deal with the thread.

You made yourself sound foolish with your comment about 1 tank 1 infantry unit. StuGs are cost effective, P4s are just a little more costly than T34s, the infantry unit prices match pretty much.

There are not really any dead Ostheer units besides the flame half track and stuff in T4, both would see a rise in use after a fuel reduction. None of the units in T4 are bad, they just seldom get used due to the T4 price

Ur comments show why u shouldn't have started a thread on ostheer balance as u really know very little abt the current state of the faction...nearly no dead unit?Yeah right.
U think pzgrens are fine more or less.lol.Reducing t4 price will solve nothing alone as people still won't use brummbar or panther in current state.And it is 1 tank,1 infantry unit my boy - grens obv,for tanks u won't be seeing either stugs or pz 4s once is-2s,e8s hit the field.Only tiger can stand up to those.

Ur comments show why u shouldn't have started a thread on ostheer balance as u really know very little abt the current state of the faction...nearly no dead unit?Yeah right.
U think pzgrens are fine more or less.lol.Reducing t4 price will solve nothing alone as people still won't use brummbar or panther in current state.And it is 1 tank,1 infantry unit my boy - grens obv,for tanks u won't be seeing either stugs or pz 4s once is-2s,e8s hit the field.Only tiger can stand up to those.

Maybe his points are wrong, which is not the point. He has stated that this thread is for the discussion of his points. What you do is bad criticism. You bash his arguments without giving your opinion WHY he is wrong, also your arguments are just as useless. You say that it is a 1 infantry, 1 tank unit army, and the tank should be a Tiger. I really want to see your source for this information.
Please keep this civil and factual

Aaaaaand it's derailed)


I liked all your points.

Might be dangerous to buff the Ost sniper too much though. And I think Pgrens should be buffed more. Not to their original state, where "terminator" was the only possible name. But to give Ost something to help deal with shocks at least a bit. 'Cos Dayum, dem shocks!

Maybe his points are wrong, which is not the point. He has stated that this thread is for the discussion of his points. What you do is bad criticism. You bash his arguments without giving your opinion WHY he is wrong, also your arguments are just as useless. You say that it is a 1 infantry, 1 tank unit army, and the tank should be a Tiger. I really want to see your source for this information.
Please keep this civil and factual

Source?how about more or less every single game being played right now?See the tourney matches..which tank u see as ostheer lategame weapon?Panther?Elefant?How many panzergrenadiers do u see?
What would u fight e8s,t-85s and is-2s with?pz 4s or stugs?Its always pak plus some stop gap into tiger.

This guy failed to read the first part of the thread that mentions call in's being fixed.....

Source?how about more or less every single game being played right now?See the tourney matches..which tank u see as ostheer lategame weapon?Panther?Elefant?How many panzergrenadiers do u see?
What would u fight e8s,t-85s and is-2s with?pz 4s or stugs?Its always pak plus some stop gap into tiger.

you did not read the whole thread clearly. There is another part dealing with Call ins, but Relic announced as a whole they want to fix the call in tanks. It is true the Call in meta is a bit dull with players creating "gap filler" units to some better call in tank. How long have you played this game? Because for some time at the beginning, you know how US blobs are accused of A moving to winning? well I can tell you from personal experience it was way worse with Panzergrenedier blobs. I mentioned buffing Pgrens slightly because that is all they really need. They are not a unit to simply charge at your foe and get in short range, they have one of the highest DPS's at mid range as well. It is great to keep them near important weapons teams because they excel at pushing back flanking shorter ranged infantry such as conscripts, penals, ect.

Pgrens aren't UP imo, they're basically Sturmpios that have slightly more combat capabilities (Bundled Grenade, Panzershreck)

you did not read the whole thread clearly. There is another part dealing with Call ins, but Relic announced as a whole they want to fix the call in tanks. It is true the Call in meta is a bit dull with players creating "gap filler" units to some better call in tank. How long have you played this game? Because for some time at the beginning, you know how US blobs are accused of A moving to winning? well I can tell you from personal experience it was way worse with Panzergrenedier blobs. I mentioned buffing Pgrens slightly because that is all they really need. They are not a unit to simply charge at your foe and get in short range, they have one of the highest DPS's at mid range as well. It is great to keep them near important weapons teams because they excel at pushing back flanking shorter ranged infantry such as conscripts, penals, ect.

Panzergrenadier blobs were finished the moment they introduced the infantry lethality patch,and they only could bully soviet stock infantry before that which were always crap,they never faced rifle blobs,if they had they would have been humbled.That along with accuracy and armor nerfs killed it.And look, don't babble on 'use them at mid-range in cover'..it has been noted a hundred times and is used when the unit is built that way..charging blindly-we DON'T do that...don't treat veteran ost players like they are noobs who don't know how to use their own units while u play ostheer far less frequently..if it was a skill issue it wouldn't exist for top players...if its a skill issue ..why aren't they being used in tourney?Ok i'm noob,most ost complainers are noobs..are the top tourney players noobs too?

Pgrens aren't UP imo, they're basically Sturmpios that have slightly more combat capabilities (Bundled Grenade, Panzershreck)

Yea except sturm pios have 5 levels of veterancy, two of which are reduced incoming accuracy that allows them to live. Pgrens are better in terms of combat but they are pretty expensive to loose men almost as quickly as grenadiers.

Panzergrenadier blobs were finished the moment they introduced the infantry lethality patch,and they only could bully soviet stock infantry before that which were always crap,they never faced rifle blobs,if they had they would have been humbled.That along with accuracy and armor nerfs killed it.And look, don't babble on 'use them at mid-range in cover'..it has been noted a hundred times and is used when the unit is built that way..charging blindly-we DON'T do that...don't treat veteran ost players like they are noobs who don't know how to use their own units while u play ostheer far less frequently..if it was a skill issue it wouldn't exist for top players...if its a skill issue ..why aren't they being used in tourney?Ok i'm noob,most ost complainers are noobs..are the top tourney players noobs too?

Which is exactly why I suggested a minor buff in their survive-ability. No need to go on huge rants about a unit I suggested buffing in a similar way you did. And you are very wrong about panzergrenediers a long time ago, but its really irrelevant now, I should not of brought it up.

I think the Pgrens should get an armor buff because they die relatively fast against us infantry. and as for panthers teching to tier 4 cost way to much so by the time you get a panther out, your opponent may already have tanks and AT guns/weapons out. It makes it very hard to deal with with just one panther since it's cost is also very high. I think the panther is most useful for 2v2 games or 3v3 and 4v4 but 1v1 i'm definitely not making a panther. I prefer to use a commander to call in tigers, elephant, or a command tank. and as for dealing with us forces early game what i go for is 3 grens 1 mg then tech to tier 2 and get a scout car out and if i see a lieutenant out i will start to save up and get a pak out.