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Well said Inverse. It's objectively worse than CoH1 as it is now and I don't see them making the absolutely fundamental changes needed to fix that. The competitive players will stick with CoH I think, as it stands.

I'd really like to know if this is stuff that's likely to see a significant change. The Relic devs have been giving some feedback but issues like these seem to be being avoided. If it's at least on the table for discussion, it would alleviate a lot of concerns.

I'd really like to know if this is stuff that's likely to see a significant change. The Relic devs have been giving some feedback but issues like these seem to be being avoided. If it's at least on the table for discussion, it would alleviate a lot of concerns.

I noticed that aswell. Every topic that has harsh, but justified, feedback. Gets ignored by the Devs, that worries me.

100% agree with inverSSSSSe

instead of upgrading CoH1 product and creating CoH2 they changes everything, maybe in theory it looks very cool and awesome but it's very unplayable.

It's all like a cheaper version of vCoH, faction design is also awful, they are like almost symmetrical which is bad thing because Germans vs Soviets were like quality vs numbers

I'd really like to know if this is stuff that's likely to see a significant change. The Relic devs have been giving some feedback but issues like these seem to be being avoided. If it's at least on the table for discussion, it would alleviate a lot of concerns.

One Relic dev has said that the resources need to be horizontal instead of vertical so that players can compare the costs of things to their res (because when you hover over a unit/building/etc. it pops up right over the resource display).

cr4wler pointed out that almost ever player memorizes what things cost after a little while of playing, so there's no reason to change to the new CoH 2 horizontal resources, which makes it super annoying to check your resources, which is something you do all the time, and the dev responded that you have to check the cost of things vs. your current resources all the time (which misses the point because most people just memorize the cost and thus only have to check their current resources).

So the answer to at least one thing is that Relic doesn't even understand the problem, let alone think it needs fixing. Which is worrying, because back when they made the original CoH they seemed to know what they were doing.

(Link to the thread in question)

i'm confident that at least some of the issues can be resolved via simple patches (like for example the often critized "lack of an early game").

i am worried though about the amount of indirect fire weapons, and all the changes to the game that make it more static (not just the maps, but also stuff like blizzards and deep snow) or more luck dependent (like a 100% health, first hit immobilizing critical, stuff breaking through ice etc.)

One Relic dev has said that the resources need to be horizontal instead of vertical so that players can compare the costs of things to their res (because when you hover over a unit/building/etc. it pops up right over the resource display).

cr4wler pointed out that almost ever player memorizes what things cost after a little while of playing, so there's no reason to change to the new CoH 2 horizontal resources, which makes it super annoying to check your resources, which is something you do all the time, and the dev responded that you have to check the cost of things vs. your current resources all the time (which misses the point because most people just memorize the cost and thus only have to check their current resources).

haha, yeah that was funny... but even funnier was his quoting my message, which read something like this:

it was mentioned that the reason for the horizontal layout is that it becomes easier to compare the cost of a given unit with the amount of resources you actually do have in the bank.

and then answering with this:

You're missing the crucial point of this system, which is being able to easily & quickly compare the cost of a unit or ability against the resources you currently have.

i was like... isn't that exactly what i wrote?

Real problem in coh2, is that it has lost the importance of early/mid game cap point battles. Its clearly a mixture of factors that have done this (some of these pointed out in OP re: UI and weapons) but till that element is right, the game will never feel like coh but some thing completely different.

The majority of the people on the BETA forums are also massive idiots, which can't be good. Thankfully (Maybe?) the devs don't seem to be listening to anyone anyway, so it really doesn't matter.

Thankfully (Maybe?) the devs don't seem to be listening to anyone anyway, so it really doesn't matter.

With the release date so soon, lets be honest, the most we can expect are balance tweeks.

Dude, every game comes to a complete halt for 3 minutes during a blizzard. Your troops move slow, you can't see shit. You have to sit in a haltrack, house or around a fire to not have all your troops die. It's well made, I give 'em that. But ffs, keep it out of automatch..

That's not my experience with it. During blizzards I started moving troops between fires/points, mortar barraging were I know fires are/houses/potential location were my enemies squads were hanging out (if they didn't retreat) etc. The pacing changes, but you can still move and maneuver around (the thermomoter doesn't go down that fast) and I think it gives a great feeling of isolation. It makes the game more tense and you have to make your moves carefully and advance with caution to not get pushed off, or push recklessly and gamble on getting a breakthrough.

I can see tweaks added to it (it seems to last a slight bit too long) but I've really enjoyed it in the games I've played.

jenni is not dude

just sayin ^^

I think you can use "dude" as well as "guys" without implying too heavily that the person is a guy. Also I am a guy.

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The competitive players will stick with CoH I think, as it stands.

I think it's sad but I'm more excited by the idea of a tweaked CoH by competitive players than by CoH2 right now

I hope they release one more patch to coh1, thats my hope!

Ive got some guesses as to why they did some of the things that Inverse mentioned....

There seems to be a definite aim for Sega/Relic to make a game that is different from vCoh. Im sure that this is driven (understandably) by upper mngmt who are concerned more with getting sales than pleasing the somewhat small community that desire to play the game for the next 5+ years. Im thinking that in general these "thoughts" about making the game different trickles from them to the upper development team and they are left trying to come up with mechanics to replace/change/add into the game to ensure that it doesn't come off as just vCoh 1.5....

This undoubtedly leads to design discussions and ideas of how to "change" and in their minds "improve" the game. One of these must of been the idea to improve the realism. And out of this thought maybe came the idea to remove/reduce the tracers/smoke and size of bullets/nades etc because these items don't look realistic on the battlefield (for lame example: when zoomed in).

This probably ran through design and when it was implemented and they "tested" it they thought, wow, this looks so much more realistic. The issue comes from the fact that developers (especially upper mngmt) don't play the game (even if they say they do). So, these items make it into the build and seem like a great idea for a couple testers who played a couple games against the computer zoomed in to see how it looked (and hardly a thought was put into whether or not this breaks the game for those who desire to play it competitively/ladder). Thankfully there is a beta, but if the changes implemented are there because of "requirements" to make the game different im not sure how much of it will be changed. Lets hope they give some thought to those of us who want the game to be competitive (especially since we'll be the ones playing the game years down the road).

Of course these are all just my opinion, and we know what those are like.....

I hope they release one more patch to coh1, thats my hope!

Keep hoping, because it isn't happening. At least that's my guess.

Kolaris-actual-balance-mod is a go? A community patch is the future I would imagine.

Great write up, this is what the developers should be reading and addressing ASAP!

+1 Inverse, I just happened to also play some CoH yesterday and I swear I was about to write up something similar before I saw this

agree mostly except on blizzards, I love it, its awesome

Agreed with everything Inverse said but honestly I am really worried now about the UI, especially after seeing a post on the SEGA forums. A guy made a comment about the horizontal resource bar on the complete other side to the minimap and the lead UI designer made a response.

Response. 'This is probably the biggest change we put in, I am really hoping that the ability to quickly compare the costs of a unit/ability vs what's available will make up for the behavioral adaption required from Coh1. Give it more time.'

Does that literally mean they are leaving the resource system this way and telling us to get used to it? I can't get used to it after 50 games, whilst I learn't gridkeys very quickly and they are now confusing my CoH1 hotkeys. I just don't understand why they would split the two most basic game information sources in the game away from one another. I am honestly given up all hope on them producing a decent UI that is even comparable to the perfect UI in CoH1.

I can barely play the game for 1-2hrs because of the amount of eye strain in which I receive, due to multiple factors including colours, mini map and blizzards. Love CoH2 as a game, but the UI at this point is killing it for me beyond belief. They better fix it or I am hoping someone will eventually make a mod for it.

totally agree with your points Inverse