What happened to Relic? Veteran developers moved out or leave and noobs got in.
lol, pro vs noob it is? I like that.
What happened to Relic?
30 Aug 2014, 11:58 AM
#81
Posts: 896
lol, pro vs noob it is? I like that.
30 Aug 2014, 12:37 PM
#82
Posts: 2272 | Subs: 1
Too many people forget the dark sides of coh1: most matches depended on snipers and lucky countersniping, camping, artillery, lame stuff like the creeping barrage, bikes pushing you away from capping points, 15 rep bunker etc. Relic did a fine job reshaping sniper mechanics, ressource system and artillery mechanics: snipers cant be camo-ed in mid of road, are slower and more expensive, new ressource system brings a more frontline-based gameplay and alows more comebacks while neglecting mircroing-orgies, arty isnt that strong anymore much more vulnerable but mobile and can fire faster which gives it a support role and not a game-depending role.
Way too many people are prejudiced. i was sceptical too in the beginning because of the danger of simplifying, but relic took out the right things and added new, awesome stuff. they learned from the brit desaster and take a lot of effort to make this game more and more enjoyable.
Really, i played coh1 till the very end and had some real awesome matches from time to time.
However this is basically what i remember:
1v1:
-m8 hitting mine but survives
-m8 running away with 5%
-pak misfiring on m8
-m10 being built AS COUNTER FOR KNIGHTS CROSS (I MEAN IT S AN ANTI TANK) which was annoying and abusive
-bike pushing
-useless and never built vehicles: vamp, flamer ht, bulldozer, quad
2v2:
-brits breaking 80% of games
-creeping barrage
-early long range mortar pit
-arty fest
-rep bunker spam. ever played vs sturmtigerost? - that guy had 1 unit (tiger) and 15 rep bunkers. we shot down his tiger to 5%, it survived and was repaired in 3-4sec
-game was always the same: wehr plays def+terror, one goes nebelwerfer and spams them, one goes vetgrens. the nebel guy also had 2+ vet snipers. US waits for howitzer and calli. cps for that are generated by sniperspamming and throwing warmachine waves at the wehrmacht
-people building 3+ snipers and nothing else
-the countersnipe - roulette: work out a tactical countersnipe, but your sniper misses (!!!)
-gameplay actually consisted of getting the enemy's snipers. who has more snipers, wins
imo coh 2 has much more variety through its maps, commanders, factions, units
Way too many people are prejudiced. i was sceptical too in the beginning because of the danger of simplifying, but relic took out the right things and added new, awesome stuff. they learned from the brit desaster and take a lot of effort to make this game more and more enjoyable.
Really, i played coh1 till the very end and had some real awesome matches from time to time.
However this is basically what i remember:
1v1:
-m8 hitting mine but survives
-m8 running away with 5%
-pak misfiring on m8
-m10 being built AS COUNTER FOR KNIGHTS CROSS (I MEAN IT S AN ANTI TANK) which was annoying and abusive
-bike pushing
-useless and never built vehicles: vamp, flamer ht, bulldozer, quad
2v2:
-brits breaking 80% of games
-creeping barrage
-early long range mortar pit
-arty fest
-rep bunker spam. ever played vs sturmtigerost? - that guy had 1 unit (tiger) and 15 rep bunkers. we shot down his tiger to 5%, it survived and was repaired in 3-4sec
-game was always the same: wehr plays def+terror, one goes nebelwerfer and spams them, one goes vetgrens. the nebel guy also had 2+ vet snipers. US waits for howitzer and calli. cps for that are generated by sniperspamming and throwing warmachine waves at the wehrmacht
-people building 3+ snipers and nothing else
-the countersnipe - roulette: work out a tactical countersnipe, but your sniper misses (!!!)
-gameplay actually consisted of getting the enemy's snipers. who has more snipers, wins
imo coh 2 has much more variety through its maps, commanders, factions, units
30 Aug 2014, 13:54 PM
#83
Posts: 440
Main issues with CoH2 over CoH1:
- Increased lethality to a point where it simply makes no sense for a game like CoH
- Some units simply shouldn't be in the game.
- Predictable, repetitive and boring 'do X or lose' strategies, because of the two points above
- Pathing
- Still no ladders (StarCraft2 baseline)
- Ultimately the flow through the game isn't nice and smooth but more like repeatedly tripping over something.
You missed a few:
-Pay2Win DLC structure
-Poorly optimized and unreasonably demanding on hardware
-Above all, the unforgivable command delay with absolutely breaks an RTS like CoH where micro can win or lose games at the drop of a hat.
30 Aug 2014, 16:03 PM
#84
Posts: 380
P2w huh? I don't think so, all commanders that were imba are nerfed now and they are good. New commanders for new armies are interesting and good too, with interesting abilities. All free commanders are god damn good. Imho, there is no p2w. Optimization? Yeah, but they are working on it, the main problem is that with new armis, bugs came in game, and they not fixing it.
You missed a few:
-Pay2Win DLC structure
-Poorly optimized and unreasonably demanding on hardware
-Above all, the unforgivable command delay with absolutely breaks an RTS like CoH where micro can win or lose games at the drop of a hat.
30 Aug 2014, 16:28 PM
#85
Posts: 125
-Pay2Win DLC structure
Most of the best Soviet and OKW doctrines are the stock ones you get for free (Also, you can find "paid-for" commanders through the drop system). The only paid-for docs which are truly better than the stocks are the Tiger Ace doctrine and the Elite Rifle company (Both doctrines being fairly overpowered. Both will probably be patched eventually).
-Poorly optimized and unreasonably demanding on hardware
Compared to other games which were released at around the same time, it's not actually that bad. Some examples with far worse optimisation include Metro 2033 (Which was released, like, 5 years before COH 2 and I can barely run that game on medium whilst I can run COH 2 on high without antiliasing before lag sets in) and Skyrim (Which was released 2 years prior to Skyrim although I can only run it at the lowest settings before lag sets in).
-Above all, the unforgivable command delay with absolutely breaks an RTS like CoH where micro can win or lose games at the drop of a hat.
I haven't had noticeable input lag in any COH 2 on my main PC (30 mb/s internet connection) since the battle servers were implemented.
30 Aug 2014, 16:33 PM
#86
Posts: 1944 | Subs: 2
WFA was a breath of fresh air when it came out but its getting stale for me. Its not even really the current blobby nature, but the fact that forward reinforcement is so critical to both factions that is really killing it for me. I like it when there is a lull in the action for a few a minutes with some suspense over where the next large attack will be and what new units you and the opponent are going to bring to the table. OKW healing truck and US Major+ambulance equates to a anticlimatic and seamless stream of units, lots of the games I play are just one really long engagement with either US winning early or OKW barely hanging on until Obersoldaten and KT hit the field and tip the scale.
30 Aug 2014, 16:37 PM
#87
14 Posts: 10665 | Subs: 9
Too many people forget the dark sides of coh1: most matches depended on snipers and lucky countersniping, camping, artillery, lame stuff like the creeping barrage, bikes pushing you away from capping points, 15 rep bunker etc. Relic did a fine job reshaping sniper mechanics, ressource system and artillery mechanics: snipers cant be camo-ed in mid of road, are slower and more expensive, new ressource system brings a more frontline-based gameplay and alows more comebacks while neglecting mircroing-orgies, arty isnt that strong anymore much more vulnerable but mobile and can fire faster which gives it a support role and not a game-depending role.
Way too many people are prejudiced. i was sceptical too in the beginning because of the danger of simplifying, but relic took out the right things and added new, awesome stuff. they learned from the brit desaster and take a lot of effort to make this game more and more enjoyable.
Really, i played coh1 till the very end and had some real awesome matches from time to time.
However this is basically what i remember:
1v1:
-m8 hitting mine but survives
-m8 running away with 5%
-pak misfiring on m8
-m10 being built AS COUNTER FOR KNIGHTS CROSS (I MEAN IT S AN ANTI TANK) which was annoying and abusive
-bike pushing
-useless and never built vehicles: vamp, flamer ht, bulldozer, quad
2v2:
-brits breaking 80% of games
-creeping barrage
-early long range mortar pit
-arty fest
-rep bunker spam. ever played vs sturmtigerost? - that guy had 1 unit (tiger) and 15 rep bunkers. we shot down his tiger to 5%, it survived and was repaired in 3-4sec
-game was always the same: wehr plays def+terror, one goes nebelwerfer and spams them, one goes vetgrens. the nebel guy also had 2+ vet snipers. US waits for howitzer and calli. cps for that are generated by sniperspamming and throwing warmachine waves at the wehrmacht
-people building 3+ snipers and nothing else
-the countersnipe - roulette: work out a tactical countersnipe, but your sniper misses (!!!)
-gameplay actually consisted of getting the enemy's snipers. who has more snipers, wins
imo coh 2 has much more variety through its maps, commanders, factions, units
+1 (apart from the Vampire which gained a new lease of life towards the end,surely?).
I would add Kettenkrad push to your list.
30 Aug 2014, 17:34 PM
#88
Posts: 440
Most of the best Soviet and OKW doctrines are the stock ones you get for free (Also, you can find "paid-for" commanders through the drop system). The only paid-for docs which are truly better than the stocks are the Tiger Ace doctrine and the Elite Rifle company (Both doctrines being fairly overpowered. Both will probably be patched eventually).
You are looking at the situation as it is now. You have to remember how things were for the majority of CoH2 life-cycle to date.
Stock Ostheer commanders absolutely sucked (except Assault Support which was wildly OP). Then industry and ET were unstoppable for a period. Now that they got the money for all these commanders they are handing them out for free either as weekly rentals or war spoils...so that is another slap in the face for those who paid for these commanders.
OKW has solid commanders, I will admit that but besides Rifle Company what the hell does USF have?
Compared to other games which were released at around the same time, it's not actually that bad. Some examples with far worse optimisation include Metro 2033 (Which was released, like, 5 years before COH 2 and I can barely run that game on medium whilst I can run COH 2 on high without antiliasing before lag sets in) and Skyrim (Which was released 2 years prior to Skyrim although I can only run it at the lowest settings before lag sets in).
No, no, no. This is where you are way off. CoH2 is just objectively badly optimized, even the most respected hardware review sites stated in 2013 not to take "graphics card x" performance running CoH2 as a serious benchmark because the game is so poorly optimized and power hungry that even high end systems don't get the FPS they ought to.
http://www.techspot.com/review/689-company-of-heroes-2-performance/page5.html
http://www.hardocp.com/article/2013/07/22/company_heroes_2_performance_iq_review/8#.VAIKO-kg-Uk
http://www.notebookcheck.net/Company-of-Heroes-2-Benchmarked.97022.0.html
I haven't had noticeable input lag in any COH 2 on my main PC (30 mb/s internet connection) since the battle servers were implemented.
Start up CoH1 and enter a 4v4 and issue a move order and compare...not even close. Even the animations are delayed and slower to execute once the command is recognized in CoH2.
30 Aug 2014, 17:42 PM
#89
Posts: 329
Optimization
Anybody who's arguing that this game is "reasonably" optimized - just wow. The game doesn't even support Dual GPU's - a base standard for any game in the last 5+ years. For those with a medium spec PC, this game is a nightmare.
P2W/DLC
The ghost of COHO is still very present - about the only thing Relic DID learn from their last game that was brought into COH2 - they built this game to be a cash cow. The game took a massive hit from negative sentiment and has never recovered.
The problem is they cut too much out so they could sell it back to you as DLC that it left many vCoh players going "Wha? I just spent $60/$99 on this and if I want to have repair bunkers - thats another $2.99 for the Soviet Industry?".
Oddly enough its funny to see that things people are claiming were abused in vCoh - such as Repair Bunkers etc were all made available in COH2 for additional coin$$.
Overall - COH2 is what it is - It'll never be vCOH as the staff that made it have long gone. The core design of the factions (with the exception of Ost/Wher) are poorly thought out and lead to very boring game play overall.
Anybody who's arguing that this game is "reasonably" optimized - just wow. The game doesn't even support Dual GPU's - a base standard for any game in the last 5+ years. For those with a medium spec PC, this game is a nightmare.
P2W/DLC
The ghost of COHO is still very present - about the only thing Relic DID learn from their last game that was brought into COH2 - they built this game to be a cash cow. The game took a massive hit from negative sentiment and has never recovered.
The problem is they cut too much out so they could sell it back to you as DLC that it left many vCoh players going "Wha? I just spent $60/$99 on this and if I want to have repair bunkers - thats another $2.99 for the Soviet Industry?".
Oddly enough its funny to see that things people are claiming were abused in vCoh - such as Repair Bunkers etc were all made available in COH2 for additional coin$$.
Overall - COH2 is what it is - It'll never be vCOH as the staff that made it have long gone. The core design of the factions (with the exception of Ost/Wher) are poorly thought out and lead to very boring game play overall.
30 Aug 2014, 19:28 PM
#90
Posts: 2272 | Subs: 1
Oddly enough its funny to see that things people are claiming were abused in vCoh - such as Repair Bunkers etc were all made available in COH2 for additional coin$$.
seriously? the industry repair stations explode after few hits. the def repair bunkers were seemingly made of the titanious, unbreakable walls of rome, surrounded by a magic force field and terminator armor. you needed like 4 barrages to kill one, and thats for the cost of 150mp, + they were repaired by 4 pios(these players played with min4 pios on the field) in few seconds. the industry stations are what the rep bunkers should have been from beginning.
i myself am glad coh2 is different from coh1 (reason stated above), because they made it better in the right aspects. unfortunately the improvements are details in the gameplay and game mechanics and people only see dlc. and get mad about it. i myself didnt buy a single commander because everything can be countered with some brain
30 Aug 2014, 19:29 PM
#91
1 Posts: 2307 | Subs: 4
Everything Relic does just seems rushed, and it hurts them in the long run when they have to go back and fix these issues. The launch was missing some critical features like observer mode and especially target tables, which is really making balance difficult now that there are 4 factions. Hell, even when WFA was coming out they overhauled the OKW 4 days before release. It just seems Relic doesn't have the manpower to work on everything that a game of this size requires in a timely manner.
Tobis "Complete Throw"
Someone asked what my avatar was from... I really don't know.
Defeated Paula and knocked him out of 2v2 Anniversary Cup
Someone asked what my avatar was from... I really don't know.
Defeated Paula and knocked him out of 2v2 Anniversary Cup
30 Aug 2014, 20:29 PM
#92
Posts: 322
Optimization
Anybody who's arguing that this game is "reasonably" optimized - just wow. The game doesn't even support Dual GPU's - a base standard for any game in the last 5+ years. For those with a medium spec PC, this game is a nightmare.
P2W/DLC
The ghost of COHO is still very present - about the only thing Relic DID learn from their last game that was brought into COH2 - they built this game to be a cash cow. The game took a massive hit from negative sentiment and has never recovered.
The problem is they cut too much out so they could sell it back to you as DLC that it left many vCoh players going "Wha? I just spent $60/$99 on this and if I want to have repair bunkers - thats another $2.99 for the Soviet Industry?".
Oddly enough its funny to see that things people are claiming were abused in vCoh - such as Repair Bunkers etc were all made available in COH2 for additional coin$$.
Overall - COH2 is what it is - It'll never be vCOH as the staff that made it have long gone. The core design of the factions (with the exception of Ost/Wher) are poorly thought out and lead to very boring game play overall.
O-M-G. You said everything that I was going to.......
GG Relic. CS:GO is my new house for Competitive game now. For COH2 ? Casual only.
Idk about you guys but for me: tell infantry to throw grenade but they don't, bad performance + bad balance + warspoils madee me lose confidence in this game. CS:GO turns out to be far better for a competitive game lol ( yes I know, it's FPS but they all competitive game ).
I think Cataclaw got the same ideal as me. And anyone see Jesulin stream lately ?
Just saying.
30 Aug 2014, 20:33 PM
#93
Posts: 322
O-M-G. You said everything that I was going to.......
GG Relic. CS:GO is my new house for Competitive game now. For COH2 ? Casual only.
Idk about you guys but for me: tell infantry to throw grenade but they don't, bad performance + bad balance + warspoils made me lose confidence in this game. CS:GO turns out to be far better for a competitive game lol ( yes I know, it's FPS but they all competitive game ).
I think Cataclaw got the same ideal as me. And anyone see Jesulin stream lately ?
Just saying.
30 Aug 2014, 21:21 PM
#94
Posts: 329
The real killer of a competitive play for COH2 was the "nanny" like stance Relic took.
All the great competitive things from vCOH were gone.
ie.
Ranks that meant something
In game ladders
etc, etc.
At ANY time was there even a hint of being able to determine somebodies actual ability via a graphic/rank/star or whatever - the nanny designers at Relic shut it down.
This wanting to appeal to the "general" gamer at the detriment of the competitive player - that's what killed it.
If Relic wants to build a large cash cow community - they should have realized that people want to see the "elite" - the best of the best - and they will follow that competitive crowd and the game would grow from there.
The way it went - the game was bogged down to be "friendly to all" - and thus the competitive types were not catered to.
I mean - come on - 18 months out and they're NOW trumpeting "observer mode"....and how are those in game ladders going?
All the great competitive things from vCOH were gone.
ie.
Ranks that meant something
In game ladders
etc, etc.
At ANY time was there even a hint of being able to determine somebodies actual ability via a graphic/rank/star or whatever - the nanny designers at Relic shut it down.
This wanting to appeal to the "general" gamer at the detriment of the competitive player - that's what killed it.
If Relic wants to build a large cash cow community - they should have realized that people want to see the "elite" - the best of the best - and they will follow that competitive crowd and the game would grow from there.
The way it went - the game was bogged down to be "friendly to all" - and thus the competitive types were not catered to.
I mean - come on - 18 months out and they're NOW trumpeting "observer mode"....and how are those in game ladders going?
30 Aug 2014, 22:07 PM
#95
Posts: 508 | Subs: 1
However this is basically what i remember:
1v1:
-m8 hitting mine but survives
-m8 running away with 5%
-pak misfiring on m8
-m10 being built AS COUNTER FOR KNIGHTS CROSS (I MEAN IT S AN ANTI TANK) which was annoying and abusive
-bike pushing
-useless and never built vehicles: vamp, flamer ht, bulldozer, quad
-sniperspam
...
Well the game must have given you a lot of frustration. I hope, for you sake, your atg's never miss a vehicle, or a tank never runs over infantry in coh 2
Most of the points you mentioned though, if Relic wanted to invest less than 1% of their resources (for coh2) in balancing vCoh; they would be fixed. And the quality of gameplay would be a lot better than CoH2.
You claim everything is better. Than why are there so much complaints about the game?
Everything is perfectly balanced in this game right?
At least vCoh came close especially for the small amount of patches it only got.Btw what makes you believe taking the importance of basebuildings away was a good idea?
The worst thing in the game when I opened the Alpha is still the worst thing today:
That goddamned UI
In Vcoh it was simple: U had the information in the left corner, and your action buttons in the right corner.
In Coh2 player information is scattered. It's exhausting and takes focus of the actual playing field. This is detrimental for gameplay.
The real killer of a competitive play for COH2 was the "nanny" like stance Relic took.
All the great competitive things from vCOH were gone.
I wonder how their observer mode ESL tournaments are going to turn out. Probably a big fail.
Just going derived numbers events like SNF had in the past with vCoh (more) and COH2 (less):http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65VCx4liKoQ&t=38m38s
Apologies if COH2 has had over +2000 viewers.
30 Aug 2014, 22:36 PM
#96
15 Posts: 1708 | Subs: 2
12k gg
30 Aug 2014, 22:46 PM
#97
Posts: 83
lol comparing a live event with a youtube cast... derp
31 Aug 2014, 03:44 AM
#98
Posts: 2272 | Subs: 1
Well the game must have given you a lot of frustration. I hope, for you sake, your atg's never miss a vehicle, or a tank never runs over infantry in coh 2
Most of the points you mentioned though, if Relic wanted to invest less than 1% of their resources (for coh2) in balancing vCoh; they would be fixed. And the quality of gameplay would be a lot better than CoH2.
You claim everything is better. Than why are there so much complaints about the game?
Everything is perfectly balanced in this game right?
Btw what makes you believe taking the importance of basebuildings away was a good idea?
The worst thing in the game when I opened the Alpha is still the worst thing today:
That goddamned UI
In Vcoh it was simple: U had the information in the left corner, and your action buttons in the right corner.
In Coh2 player information is scattered. It's exhausting and takes focus of the actual playing field. This is detrimental for gameplay.
I wonder how their observer mode ESL tournaments are going to turn out. Probably a big fail.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65VCx4liKoQ&t=38m38s
Apologies if COH2 has had over +2000 viewers.
never said with a single word coh2 is perfectly balanced. however its gameplay nature is more forgiving and therefore more enjoyable. units are cheaper and weaker. it isnt about killing that one unit in midgame or die (m8, puma, sniper). i dont want to play vcoh anymore. i m fed up of volx not being able to kill flamer engies in house in early game. i dont want to chase rifle squads around house corners for minutes. i dont want to click 10000 times to push rifles out of cover with my bike.
in coh2 i have the feeling the player who played better throughout the wholke game usually wins. in coh1 i feel the whole game is completely decided by one single action(sniper misfires, pak 1m to far away to get the killing blow, puma missing mine, m8 mine in front of medic bunker whereisthepukesmiley). the resource system makes the game much more enjoyable, as single squads actually can be replaced.
in coh1:
-lose mg in early game: game ender
-lose rifle: mostly game ender
-enemy gets pak: game ender
and oh yeah,base buildings: really good for m8 mines. really nice when you forgot to lay a mine and m8 rushes in your base (or even better: you laid one and m8 misses it) mining your buildings and offmaps killing your t2 and stuff.
glad that shit has gone
31 Aug 2014, 11:17 AM
#99
Posts: 577
Optimization is crap and I am quite annoyed of the bugs.
Gameplay wise I prefer CoH2. I find the factions here actually better than the vCoH ones :/
Similarly, I find a lot of the features in CoH2 are far superior to the vCoH ones. I hated the vehicle pushing in vCoH and I'd prefer if it was completely gone in CoH2, but I can live with the fact that besides M3A1SC and sWS vehicles aren't really used to push.
My personal top 3 of the biggest improvements:
- True sight
- UI / added features (Not saying the UI is super or the best ever, but I really love the additional information. Having all unit icons in the top right is super useful for example. Reverse, reinforcing groups...)
- Comebacks (Meaning the fact that in CoH2 the whole game is important. The resource and sector system is all allowing a player to claw back into a game even after the loss of a unit. To me that makes the games more interesting, as you need to constantly outplay your opponent and not just wait for him to make one mistake and then just capitalize on this.)
vCoH had me playing for about a year and like a month after each expansion.
CoH2 had me playing since the beginning. So I guess I just like CoH2 more.
Fix performance + bugs =
- A balance problem can be accounted for. Overperforming unit? Go for the hardcounter. A bug ruining your games repeatedly, but only randomly appearing? Total annoyance and you can't do shit about it.
Gameplay wise I prefer CoH2. I find the factions here actually better than the vCoH ones :/
Similarly, I find a lot of the features in CoH2 are far superior to the vCoH ones. I hated the vehicle pushing in vCoH and I'd prefer if it was completely gone in CoH2, but I can live with the fact that besides M3A1SC and sWS vehicles aren't really used to push.
My personal top 3 of the biggest improvements:
- True sight
- UI / added features (Not saying the UI is super or the best ever, but I really love the additional information. Having all unit icons in the top right is super useful for example. Reverse, reinforcing groups...)
- Comebacks (Meaning the fact that in CoH2 the whole game is important. The resource and sector system is all allowing a player to claw back into a game even after the loss of a unit. To me that makes the games more interesting, as you need to constantly outplay your opponent and not just wait for him to make one mistake and then just capitalize on this.)
vCoH had me playing for about a year and like a month after each expansion.
CoH2 had me playing since the beginning. So I guess I just like CoH2 more.
Fix performance + bugs =
- A balance problem can be accounted for. Overperforming unit? Go for the hardcounter. A bug ruining your games repeatedly, but only randomly appearing? Total annoyance and you can't do shit about it.
31 Aug 2014, 13:01 PM
#100
Posts: 16
I was about to buy this game but thx God i found out that it doesnt have SLI mode which saved me 50 bucks. I mean, even vCoh has SLI support and its 8 years old. And Relic is trying to sell this piece of crap in 2013 without SLI support. And not even a year they add it. Oh, and they are trumpeting Observer mod now, haha, what a joke.
I remember playing Redalert 2 in 2000 and it had observer, go figure the quality of this game. But i guess consumerism has got into games also with the retarded DLC policy.
I remember playing Redalert 2 in 2000 and it had observer, go figure the quality of this game. But i guess consumerism has got into games also with the retarded DLC policy.
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