My thoughts & ideas on Conscripts

They already get +40% accuracy at v2.

(Same as Grens)

Arclyte seems to have difficulty grasping how it can be that a unit upgraded at Muni cost could have better DPS than one that isnt. To him, its confusing like a unicorn. He cant tell if its a horse with a boner on its forehead, or a 4legged narwhal.

Then we're back to square one of debating whether to buff or not.

They already get +40% accuracy at v2.

(Same as Grens)

Arclyte seems to have difficulty grasping how it can be that a unit upgraded at Muni cost could have better DPS than one that isnt. To him, its confusing like a unicorn. He cant tell if its a horse with a boner on its forehead, or a 4legged narwhal.

you seem flustered

Vet 3 grens without LMGs don't exist, just like unicorns don't exist.

Then we're back to square one of debating whether to buff or not.

Dont worry. This discussion has been had dozens of times over, to zero effect, by far smarter, better and more knowledgeable players/posters than any of us here.

It pops up every so often when some sovboi gets particularly frustrated at not being able to spamspamspam Cons to do everything he wants, and instead occassionally having to tech or use Commander infantry, when mostly what they want is to just build Cons and then go straight to callin armor. That this is not entirely possible at present without some combined arms, pisses them off immensly.

So then we get these threads and all do a few rounds of square dancing, posturing and making faces at each other.
Often some suggestions are made about Penals (which pisses the Cons guys off even more, cos its Cons they want, not filthy Peepees. Hell, theyd even have to build T1 for that. No way, man.)
Stuff like that. Old hat, ya know.

I like the hypocrisy and irony in the post above *cough*pgrens, mg42 and volks people*cough*.

I like the hypocrisy and irony in the post above *cough*pgrens and volks people*cough*.

No hypocrisy or irony there.

I never said this kind of thing was exclusive to Cons.
Nice imaginary world you got there though!

Are you saying you think PGrens are fine?
(*prepares the laugh track for the punchline*)

Let's have a friendly discussion.

1. Buff cons by giving them something like PPS43, single DP or something but leave penals to be close range high dps troops.

2. Buff penal battalion to be better at long range since you built T1 so you should be rewarded by getting soldiers who excel at long mid-long range but leave cons alone.

I can't decide which one is better so will need your(everyone) opinion on it.

Steel:
Much more definately the second.

I wrote about something similar here in this thread, if you care to read it:
http://www.coh2.org/topic/22935/my-thoughts-%26-ideas-on-conscripts/page/4#post_id206037

Dont worry. This discussion has been had dozens of times over, to zero effect, by far smarter, better and more knowledgeable players/posters than any of us here.

It pops up every so often when some sovboi gets particularly frustrated at not being able to spamspamspam Cons to do everything he wants, and instead occassionally having to tech or use Commander infantry, when mostly what they want is to just build Cons and then go straight to callin armor. That this is not entirely possible at present without some combined arms, pisses them off immensly.

So then we get these threads and all do a few rounds of square dancing, posturing and making faces at each other.
Often some suggestions are made about Penals (which pisses the Cons guys off even more, cos its Cons they want, not filthy Peepees. Hell, theyd even have to build T1 for that. No way, man.)
Stuff like that. Old hat, ya know.

I now use Guards or PPSh conscripts (team games only) as my mainline infantry for most of my games, and I didn't see anyone in the thread who wanted to make conscripts really powerful either, but don't let such things get in the way of your ''satire'' I suppose.

Me wanting conscripts to scale better doesn't mean I want to spam them. It means I would like them to be useful late game; not useful as in ''solos vet 5 Obers'' but useful as in ''doesn't have to turn tail and run at the sight of anything scarier than Volks''.

Cons are fine really.
They scale to lategame as a larger infantry unit with more soak and less cost.
And they start right out with Oorah/Merge, which is an advantage in all game phases.

For more specialised DPS roles, look to Commander infantry, and hopefully a Penal improvement.

My thoughts.

I think that penals are the missing link in the soviet army, and buffing them mid-long range will make soviet infantry play much more relevant and will solve most of the current issues.

Conscripts are fine till midgame as they are. I don't mind not buffing them, but if they're going to be the cannonfodder of the soviet army, their upkeep or reinforce cost should be decreased once T3/T4 had been built seeing how they don't kill anything, their molo is barely useless and their ATnade can't reliably pen anything except halftracks.

@Cannonade, conscripts doesn't scale lategame at all. Saying otherwise is nonsense. Even Relic developers know they don't scale and want to keep them like that.

And about grens, if you don't buy their awesome lmg upgrade then is your fault if they don't scale lategame. 60 ammo is not expensive, is the same price of a flamer.
I can't believe than someone could complaint that vanilla vet 3 grens are useless. At least faust is always useful.

EDIT:
By the way, soviet's infantry problems are bigger in teamgames. You can still see some people using cons & penals in 1vs1 games. But in 2vs2, sniper/maxim starts are much more common.

cmon guys i haven't invised anything but you are pushing it. if you want throw insults back and forth at each other then please call each other on skype (or something). Where you can yell, scream, roar scratch, claw, bite at each other to your hearts content. This forum isn't the propper place for personal attacks/insults. people have many different opinions but they have a right to them just like you. If you're feeling particularly daring you can have a real life (slap) fight to the death winner take all. just send the replay (i mean video) to ami so he can cast the epic match!

you guys should all be old enough to handle being civil, reasonably polite, and respectful to others.

Not sure if I even posted in this thread but I've wanted for a while for either Penals/Cons to be able to have some sort of munition upgrade thats gated by a mp/fuel purchase that requires T3/T4 built.

First things first, LMG changes need to happen before either penals or cons get tinkered with, and see how the balance plays out then.

Greeb: Cons come "scaled" right out of the box, due to Oorah/Merge, 6man soak and cheaper reinforce. These remain eminent throughout the game.

Rest of scaling is handled as normal by veterancy, for which they have the same increases as Grens.

Greeb: Cons come "scaled" right out of the box, due to Oorah/Merge, 6man soak and cheaper reinforce. These remain eminent throughout the game.

Rest of scaling is handled as normal by veterancy, for which they have the same increases as Grens.

Ooorah and merge are utility, not scaling. That would be like saying Sturmpioneers are already scaled because they can lay special barbed wire and mines or something. They're useful abilities, but scaling as I understand it is defined by a unit's ability to get stronger/more effective as the game progresses. Conscripts ''scale'' by getting molotovs and AT nades, which they pay a lot of fuel to get, and those things pale in comparison to BARs/1919s, shrecks, or LMG42s.

And I still don't understand how ''6 men soak'' and ''cheaper reinforce'' are even arguments at all when 1) ALL Soviet infantry squads save partisans and CEs have 6 men, and that hasn't been unique to the faction since we got Osttruppen and 2) the conscripts are relatively no cheaper to reinforce than anything else. Unless you suggest that conscript's role in late game is to die in droves so that other infantry can actually do something useful. Which is pretty bad design when other faction's basic infantry never reaches that degree of irrelevance late game.

They have same veterancy as grens, sure. Detail is, grens get one of the best weapons in the game. Conscripts, well, don't. Even the doctrinal PPSh in the current meta is eclipsed by the LMG42. And while the cure is not necessarily to give conscripts an upgrade, I do feel the disparity is too large. They need some late game love to become relevant again.

Also, Woof, I saw one of the replays (the one on Karkhov), and from what I saw the conscripts became irrelevant to RedxWing's strategy pretty fast. He used them for capping and never replaced lost squads that I saw. His Penals kicked ass and took names, which is good, but they were in an almost ideal situation, in close quarters with flamers against waves of clumped infantry and trucks to satchel. The 120mm mortar was also given complete free reign.

Still, I'm going to try that strategy, see how it goes. Probably going to go Advanced Warfare rather than Defensive, Dushkas aren't terribly good.

Greeb: Cons come "scaled" right out of the box, due to Oorah/Merge, 6man soak and cheaper reinforce. These remain eminent throughout the game.

Rest of scaling is handled as normal by veterancy, for which they have the same increases as Grens.

Grens and Volks are better at mid range.And Sturmpios' close range DPS are way better.
Oorah is the ability that balance conscripts, making up for their terrible damage output at long-mid ranges. Btw, they can't shoot while in Oorah.

Merge is not the OP ability you think. Reinforcing conscripts is not especially cheaper and effectively removes a conscript squad from the battle until reinforced.

You forgot to say that rifle and AT grenades come for free for Ost when teching, meanwhile soviet must spend fuel upgrading them. And both of them are inferior than the Ostheer ones.

About the squad size, 6 men squads can be an issue in support weapons, but is not always an advantage for infantry. Yes, it's more easy to wipe an axis squad with a nade, but in exchange, is barely impossible to keep a soviet squad in green cover. Reinforcing prices keeps them balanced.

Axis infantry also have their couple of useful abilities, like being able to heal themselves and much better vet bonuses.

In short, cons are perfectly balanced early game against grens. The thing is that grens can scale very well late game spending 60 ammo in a LMG upgrade, meanwhile cons doesn't scale at all. They don't get better abilities, or new weapons and even their vet bonuses are useless.
Cons are kept alive only for merging, stealing weapons or throwing ATnades.

Relic developers themselves had said plenty of times that conscripts are not mean to scale lategame, and they don't. Their uselfulness as a combat unit decreases very quickly, and from midgame onwards they have a role alike to the Combat Engineers, a unit with useful abilities but not able to fight against anything. Just to keep them at the back of the fighting forces and merge when required, and Oorah against any enemy vehicle and throw Atnades (which against anything superior to a halftrack fails nearly always).

That is not scaling if their combat value is close to zero. They just remain useful, but not scaling at all.

Keep in mind that with the lmg nerfs conscripts and penals might be fine afterall, they won't need any buffs.

Keep in mind that with the lmg nerfs conscripts and penals might be fine afterall, they won't need any buffs.

I'll believe when I see it.
Anything to discourage use of LMG infantry and encourage use of mid-short range infantry will be a healthy and welcome change.

Greeb & The_Courier: Ive already explained several times over, and dont care to repeat myself again. Its all a matter of record in this thread, and Ive said what I have to say on the issues.

IF conscripts cannot scale late game, why not giving them at vet3 the possibility to be replaced by a Guard/Shock/Penal squad for free or a short amout of mp.

I mean, conscript that survive that time on the battlefield and gain that veterance aren't anymore conscripts but specialized squad.

1- This could allow Soviet to use other doctrines, if Shocks are reachable from another way than doctrine but still not spammable.
2- This is highly rewarding for the player who keep alive his squads but doesn't bring that much balance issues.
3- We could decide, according to balance tests if the squad become a shock/guard/penal squad vet0 1, 2 or 3. If we add a short cost for the "transformation".

anyway, that could bring some interesting gameplay, suprising Axis players with a squad that normally the Sov should not get according to his teching/doctrine.

The hypocrisy this post reveals is astounding for someone bashing others for replying with "snarky little quips".

While we're on the matter:

http://www.coh2.org/ladders/playercard/viewBoard/10/steamid/76561197999260801
I realize you haven't played a single game as OKW, so my references to volks are mystifying

Don't criticize people, especially senior members of staff (please apply to be a strategist so I can laugh at your pathetic player card too) who actually provide reasonable and justified input to your thread.

This thread started well and I read some great suggestions and discussions, keep it up please instead of turning to mocking each other.