My thoughts & ideas on Conscripts

Jump back to quoted post24 Aug 2014, 02:21 AMArclyte

Yea guardsman should be an inspiration for relic if they're not already. Conscripts should be numerous and cheap.[/quote

i guess they are numerous and cheap right now but they just suck haha

Jump back to quoted post24 Aug 2014, 01:48 AMMilkaCow

Upgrades are incredibly hard to balance, so I'd advise against that. I've explained it countless times, but upgrades basically mean that units get more cost-efficient and eclipse stronger, but less cost efficient units. For example LMG Grens and PGrens.

The comparison between Cons and Grens is to a degree lacking. You seem to have listed only the parts where Grenadiers are better than Conscripts, but forget other points. The size of the squad for example is a major difference when trying to disable tanks, same for the Oorah ability. Their merge ability is also rather strong since infantry armor was removed. Merging with Guards or Penals has no downside, but saves a lot of cost and popcap. Besides that, Conscripts are already less popcap than Grenadiers, so the high AI strength of the latter comes at a higher popcap.

I personally do not see a big problem with Conscripts balance wise. They fulfill the roles they were designed for, to be aggressive harassing units early and a tank screen / meat shield lategame.

A lategame upgrade like Arclyte suggested, to make them cheaper popcap wise sounds interesting, but I am not sure if it is possible. If you just reduced the cost/popcap per entity then I do not think it would cause people to use more Conscripts lategame, but would just be a buff to the merge ability. You can already have a Guards squad for the popcap of a Conscript if you merge instead of reinforcing, a further cost decrease would make that even better. AFAIK the only way to do it would be some squad modifier, reducing the popcap of the squad or such, that would probably work.

Personally I feel they are fine, but if they would need a lategame improvement I would try to increase their utility rather than their combat strength with an upgrade. Faction diversity and balance are my reasons for that. If I want good AI scaling I get Grens, if I want great AT scaling I get Volks, if I want great AI / mediocre AT scaling I get Rifles - but if I want good utility scaling I get Cons.

Jump back to quoted post24 Aug 2014, 03:02 AMASneakyFox

the thing is once the axis get LMGs then they just do an attack move, and pin your squads and wipe them out. All they have going for them is that theyre slightly survivable against vehicles becuase of their numbers.

I'm personally somewhat ok with this. the main thing that i dont like is that soviets have no mid-late game infantry. I feel like penal squads are SUPPOSED to have that role. but in reality they just cost more than conscripts, have less abilities, and perform about as well or worse than them...

What is the penal squads role in this game? what unit do they counter? I think if they question could be answered than the soviets wouldnt feel so underwhleming in the infantry sector late game.

Jump back to quoted post24 Aug 2014, 03:02 AMASneakyFox

the thing is once the axis get LMGs then they just do an attack move, and pin your squads and wipe them out. All they have going for them is that theyre slightly survivable against vehicles becuase of their numbers.

I'm personally somewhat ok with this. the main thing that i dont like is that soviets have no mid-late game infantry. I feel like penal squads are SUPPOSED to have that role. but in reality they just cost more than conscripts, have less abilities, and perform about as well or worse than them...

What is the penal squads role in this game? what unit do they counter? I think if they question could be answered than the soviets wouldnt feel so underwhleming in the infantry sector late game.

Jump back to quoted post24 Aug 2014, 03:19 AMwehrwolfzug

I think what most players have troubles understanding with the current penals is they do not fully understand soviet tier one. You need to think of soviet tier one as a scouting tier. You have snipers, scout car and penals. Snipers on hold fire and cloaked give you intel. Don't forget the flair too. Scout car gives you armor with sight bonus. Penals are an aggressive suicide unit to probe behind enemy lines. Although they need a Los increase to better represent their role.

Conscripts should be a long range dig and defend unit. Unfortunately because of Oorah and close range dps (ppsh upgrades) they are used in a human wave/suicide role. Which is what penals should be doing. The overlap of roles between penals and conscripts is one of the leading causes of this confusion.

Soviets need a redesign to clean up a lot of the big mess they are in. But it can be done with some small creative changes.

Jump back to quoted post24 Aug 2014, 03:56 AMGreeb

I think that buffing penals into a mid-long range unit will balance conscripts too. As they could Oraah against the enemy while having a support infantry behind softening a bit the defense.

At the most, I would decrease their reinforce cost once T3/T4 has been built. That would made up for their lack of presence lategame while strengthening their role of cannonfodder.

Jump back to quoted post24 Aug 2014, 04:25 AMNinjaWJ

why do penal troops get svt40s anyways? they should be given basic rifles.

Jump back to quoted post24 Aug 2014, 04:36 AMThe_Courier

Never understood that one either. I'm pretty sure the Soviets never gave their cannon fodder troops modern semi-automaic rifles. They should have Mosins, SVTs seems much more like a conscript or Guards weapon.

At the beginning, I think penals should have been conceived as a frontline assault squad, and conscripts as an all-around unit that can scale to longer range (via an upgrade or vet). But somehow the Penals were given flamethrower and satchels... along with longer range rifles. All other infantry have pretty defined roles, the Penals are just there and don't really serve any purpose nor make any sense. It's like giving Obersoldaten an LMG34 and sticking MP40s to the rest of the squad.

Jump back to quoted post24 Aug 2014, 03:06 AMKothre

I think penals should be the Soviets' Conscript +1 type unit, but currently, all carbine weapon profiles are rather lackluster, which is why penals don't seem all that particularly well in comparison to conscripts. I think if/when Relic changes this, we'll see penals become a lot more useful.

Also, LMG's don't suppress/pin, only HMG's do.

Jump back to quoted post24 Aug 2014, 06:00 AMASneakyFox

im pretty sure LMGs suppress too. it only works if the squad is stationary (thats why you do an attack move instead of a regular move, so theyll stop moving and let the LMG guy fire)