Yea guardsman should be an inspiration for relic if they're not already. Conscripts should be numerous and cheap.[/quote
i guess they are numerous and cheap right now but they just suck haha
My thoughts & ideas on Conscripts
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Posts: 2070
Posts: 126
Upgrades are incredibly hard to balance, so I'd advise against that. I've explained it countless times, but upgrades basically mean that units get more cost-efficient and eclipse stronger, but less cost efficient units. For example LMG Grens and PGrens.
The comparison between Cons and Grens is to a degree lacking. You seem to have listed only the parts where Grenadiers are better than Conscripts, but forget other points. The size of the squad for example is a major difference when trying to disable tanks, same for the Oorah ability. Their merge ability is also rather strong since infantry armor was removed. Merging with Guards or Penals has no downside, but saves a lot of cost and popcap. Besides that, Conscripts are already less popcap than Grenadiers, so the high AI strength of the latter comes at a higher popcap.
I personally do not see a big problem with Conscripts balance wise. They fulfill the roles they were designed for, to be aggressive harassing units early and a tank screen / meat shield lategame.
A lategame upgrade like Arclyte suggested, to make them cheaper popcap wise sounds interesting, but I am not sure if it is possible. If you just reduced the cost/popcap per entity then I do not think it would cause people to use more Conscripts lategame, but would just be a buff to the merge ability. You can already have a Guards squad for the popcap of a Conscript if you merge instead of reinforcing, a further cost decrease would make that even better. AFAIK the only way to do it would be some squad modifier, reducing the popcap of the squad or such, that would probably work.
Personally I feel they are fine, but if they would need a lategame improvement I would try to increase their utility rather than their combat strength with an upgrade. Faction diversity and balance are my reasons for that. If I want good AI scaling I get Grens, if I want great AT scaling I get Volks, if I want great AI / mediocre AT scaling I get Rifles - but if I want good utility scaling I get Cons.
What are your thoughts of an ability to upgrade vet three cons to doctrine specific infantry once the 2 cp mark has been hit? They would be vet zero doctrine troops of course. Say you could only do it when the sqaud is at the hq? You would have to admit this solution is rather close to being cons merging three men each to two doctrine sqauds short three models which would eliminate the con sqaud and remove the cons sqaud popcap restraint.
I really don't see how this could be a bad fix but maybe you have different ways of looking at this solution positive or negative.
Posts: 365
I'm personally somewhat ok with this. the main thing that i dont like is that soviets have no mid-late game infantry. I feel like penal squads are SUPPOSED to have that role. but in reality they just cost more than conscripts, have less abilities, and perform about as well or worse than them...
What is the penal squads role in this game? what unit do they counter? I think if they question could be answered than the soviets wouldnt feel so underwhleming in the infantry sector late game.
Posts: 431
the thing is once the axis get LMGs then they just do an attack move, and pin your squads and wipe them out. All they have going for them is that theyre slightly survivable against vehicles becuase of their numbers.
I'm personally somewhat ok with this. the main thing that i dont like is that soviets have no mid-late game infantry. I feel like penal squads are SUPPOSED to have that role. but in reality they just cost more than conscripts, have less abilities, and perform about as well or worse than them...
What is the penal squads role in this game? what unit do they counter? I think if they question could be answered than the soviets wouldnt feel so underwhleming in the infantry sector late game.
I think penals should be the Soviets' Conscript +1 type unit, but currently, all carbine weapon profiles are rather lackluster, which is why penals don't seem all that particularly well in comparison to conscripts. I think if/when Relic changes this, we'll see penals become a lot more useful.
Also, LMG's don't suppress/pin, only HMG's do.
Posts: 39
Posts: 126
the thing is once the axis get LMGs then they just do an attack move, and pin your squads and wipe them out. All they have going for them is that theyre slightly survivable against vehicles becuase of their numbers.
I'm personally somewhat ok with this. the main thing that i dont like is that soviets have no mid-late game infantry. I feel like penal squads are SUPPOSED to have that role. but in reality they just cost more than conscripts, have less abilities, and perform about as well or worse than them...
What is the penal squads role in this game? what unit do they counter? I think if they question could be answered than the soviets wouldnt feel so underwhleming in the infantry sector late game.
I think what most players have troubles understanding with the current penals is they do not fully understand soviet tier one. You need to think of soviet tier one as a scouting tier. You have snipers, scout car and penals. Snipers on hold fire and cloaked give you intel. Don't forget the flair too. Scout car gives you armor with sight bonus. Penals are an aggressive suicide unit to probe behind enemy lines. Although they need a Los increase to better represent their role.
Conscripts should be a long range dig and defend unit. Unfortunately because of Oorah and close range dps (ppsh upgrades) they are used in a human wave/suicide role. Which is what penals should be doing. The overlap of roles between penals and conscripts is one of the leading causes of this confusion.
Soviets need a redesign to clean up a lot of the big mess they are in. But it can be done with some small creative changes.
Posts: 1705
Posts: 2070
I think what most players have troubles understanding with the current penals is they do not fully understand soviet tier one. You need to think of soviet tier one as a scouting tier. You have snipers, scout car and penals. Snipers on hold fire and cloaked give you intel. Don't forget the flair too. Scout car gives you armor with sight bonus. Penals are an aggressive suicide unit to probe behind enemy lines. Although they need a Los increase to better represent their role.
Conscripts should be a long range dig and defend unit. Unfortunately because of Oorah and close range dps (ppsh upgrades) they are used in a human wave/suicide role. Which is what penals should be doing. The overlap of roles between penals and conscripts is one of the leading causes of this confusion.
Soviets need a redesign to clean up a lot of the big mess they are in. But it can be done with some small creative changes.
yeah good point. once relic figures out the penal squad, then it becomes a lot easier to understand and change the function of conscripts
Posts: 971
At the most, I would decrease their reinforce cost once T3/T4 has been built. That would made up for their lack of presence lategame while strengthening their role of cannonfodder.
Posts: 126
I think that buffing penals into a mid-long range unit will balance conscripts too. As they could Oraah against the enemy while having a support infantry behind softening a bit the defense.
At the most, I would decrease their reinforce cost once T3/T4 has been built. That would made up for their lack of presence lategame while strengthening their role of cannonfodder.
Also a good idea. If I may also add more to this you could profile penals much the same way other factions profile scout infantry. In fact penals originally came out as long range units but through patches had been changed to short range. I forget why relic did this but I think at the time it was to plug a balance hole in earlier patches.
I would caution though that giving a suicide unit a long range profile may be contradictory. However long range sight with a mid range damage profile may be a better compromise. It would still put penals in suicide situations instead of attack moving blobs with long sight and long range weapons.
Posts: 2070
Posts: 665
why do penal troops get svt40s anyways? they should be given basic rifles.
Never understood that one either. I'm pretty sure the Soviets never gave their cannon fodder troops modern semi-automaic rifles. They should have Mosins, SVTs seems much more like a conscript or Guards weapon.
At the beginning, I think penals should have been conceived as a frontline assault squad, and conscripts as an all-around unit that can scale to longer range (via an upgrade or vet). But somehow the Penals were given flamethrower and satchels... along with longer range rifles. All other infantry have pretty defined roles, the Penals are just there and don't really serve any purpose nor make any sense. It's like giving Obersoldaten an LMG34 and sticking MP40s to the rest of the squad.
Posts: 126
Never understood that one either. I'm pretty sure the Soviets never gave their cannon fodder troops modern semi-automaic rifles. They should have Mosins, SVTs seems much more like a conscript or Guards weapon.
At the beginning, I think penals should have been conceived as a frontline assault squad, and conscripts as an all-around unit that can scale to longer range (via an upgrade or vet). But somehow the Penals were given flamethrower and satchels... along with longer range rifles. All other infantry have pretty defined roles, the Penals are just there and don't really serve any purpose nor make any sense. It's like giving Obersoldaten an LMG34 and sticking MP40s to the rest of the squad.
You need to do some research on penal battalions. Alot of the soldiers in the battalions were soldiers who had been encircled earlier in the war. Alot of trained officers had been sent to the penal battalions also. If anything the penal battalions had some of the most trained soldiers around.
look up a book called penalty strike on google. Read some of the free pages. Penal Battalions were used before attacks to infiltrate and break through enemy defenses. Get behind enemy lines and sabatoge communications and logistics.
Penal battalions were given flame throwers, ppsh lmgs and other various weapons. They were however only given these weapons right before they were about to go on a mission.
Posts: 2070
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Posts: 365
I think penals should be the Soviets' Conscript +1 type unit, but currently, all carbine weapon profiles are rather lackluster, which is why penals don't seem all that particularly well in comparison to conscripts. I think if/when Relic changes this, we'll see penals become a lot more useful.
Also, LMG's don't suppress/pin, only HMG's do.
im pretty sure LMGs suppress too. it only works if the squad is stationary (thats why you do an attack move instead of a regular move, so theyll stop moving and let the LMG guy fire)
Posts: 239
im pretty sure LMGs suppress too. it only works if the squad is stationary (thats why you do an attack move instead of a regular move, so theyll stop moving and let the LMG guy fire)
Only Paratroopers, Obersoldaten(vet 4 bonus), and Riflemen in defensive stance suppress with their LMGs.
Posts: 2070
The upgrades should go to conscripts since they are the "core" unit. We should encourage their use
Posts: 647
okw has the same problem but to a smaller extent because volks can nade and they can get obers to compensate the huge dps dispairity.
Posts: 1705
While shocks and ppssh cons do close range business and guards long range.
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