My thoughts & ideas on Conscripts

I've been playing CoH2 since launch, and ever since then the Conscript unit has seemed out of place to me.

To start off, the cost of both Cons and Grens were the same: 240 manpower. That is fine, since they are both balanced at the start of the game at that price.

However when grenadiers get to tier 2 and their LMG upgrade, they stand head and shoulders above the conscript. Now, all told, to make full use of a conscript unit, you need to spend:

240mp per squad
250 manpower and 50 fuel worth of upgrades at the HQ.

Ok, thats not outrageous if you're going to be using conscripts throughout the game. The problem here is that you really can't. Their only weapon upgrade is on a few of the less-viable commanders that no one really uses. When the game reaches a certain point cons exist to throw AT nades, as they are an MP drain since they get farmed by elite infantry with LMGs.

Grenadiers get Faust and Rifle Grenade (better versions of the paid conscript abilities for free), and a 60 munition LMG upgrade.

240mp per squad
60 munis for the LMG

I am fine with grenadiers being better on a 1:1 basis to conscripts. The problem I have is the cost disparity (or lack thereof) between the two units. They cost the same, yet grenadiers are IMO second only to riflemen as far as baseline infantry go, due to their effective free abilities, cheap cost and a powerful LMG.

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Another Relic game I played the hell out of was the Dawn of War series. For anyone here who has played Dawn of War 1, you might remember the Ork tier 4 ability from IIRC "Da Boyz Hut" that:

A) Reduced the cost and reinforce of slugga boyz
B) Reduced the build time of slugga boyz
C) Reduced pop cap of slugga boyz

This played to the idea of what orks were supposed to be: a big mob of thugs swarming you down

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I think this is one possible direction to take conscripts. Give soviets a tier 3/4 unlock that reduces the cost/reinforce and popcap of conscripts. It never made sense to me that conscripts were the same price as grenadiers throughout the whole game. At the start they are fairly equal, but past the 5 minute mark grenadiers take a huge leap ahead and stay there.

This would also reduce the amount of players spamming maxims / snipers. If I know I can be competitive all game with cons, I'd be more inclined to make them over spamming cheese units. Building a rifleman or grenadier is a very safe choice since they scale all the way to the end game. Buying a conscript is a weak investment.

holy smokes arclyte got banned.



but yeah i agree with your post. It seems kind of silly and unfair that Soviets need to use a doctrinal unit (guards or shocks) in order to compete with other Axis main infantry.

nah im still here, they just havent removed that tag yet

How about giving conscripts a single DP28 upgrade or a PPS43 package upgrade by default that gets replaced by PPSH41 when a doctrine with PPSH gets chosen?

To make a fair comparison players should also make note that conscripts are tier zero. This means while the ost player is building their tier one building the soviet player is pumping out a conscript sqaud from the hq. This gives the soviet player a little extra capping power or a two cons vs one gren scenario.

Also by using merge you can gain vet on one of your con squads real quick. Use one con sqaud to do the fighting and the other to merge. This keeps the main cons sqaud on the field and fighting with out retreat. You would be surprised how well this works.

The problem I have is that you need around 4 to 6 cons sqauds at the start to compete. That takes up valuable cap space. When the cons become useless mid to late game you have to suicide vetted cons to free up the cap space for real infantry. This throws away valuable manpower, it also gives experience and cp to the enemy for free just so you can build the counters against lmg Grens. You could dynamite the sqauds to get around this but it is stupid that soviets have to resort to that.

Remove all tier zero combat infantry for all factions. Make every faction start with a engineer sqaud. Players can choose multi engineer start into tier one or go straight tier one at the start.

To make a fair comparison players should also make note that conscripts are tier zero. This means while the ost player is building their tier one building the soviet player is pumping out a conscript sqaud from the hq. This gives the soviet player a little extra capping power or a two cons vs one gren scenario.

Also by using merge you can gain vet on one of your con squads real quick. Use one con sqaud to do the fighting and the other to merge. This keeps the main cons sqaud on the field and fighting with out retreat. You would be surprised how well this works.

The problem I have is that you need around 4 to 6 cons sqauds at the start to compete. That takes up valuable cap space. When the cons become useless mid to late game you have to suicide vetted cons to free up the cap space for real infantry. This throws away valuable manpower, it also gives experience and cp to the enemy for free just so you can build the counters against lmg Grens. You could dynamite the sqauds to get around this but it is stupid that soviets have to resort to that.

Remove all tier zero combat infantry for all factions. Make every faction start with a engineer sqaud. Players can choose multi engineer start into tier one or go straight tier one at the start.

i see where you are coming from. giving them upgrades such as non-doctrinal pssh and dp28 would be nice. they should be the same at tier 0 and perhaps have the weapon upgrades tied to tier 1 or two. Perhaps giving them better vet bonuses would encourage using conscripts throughout the game and having a fighting chance against OKW and OST.


I thought of an interesting idea...

since guards infantry are more experienced and veteran than normal conscripts, it would be amazing if vet3 conscripts magically became guards squads

I agree that is a good idea. A nice fix might be allowing vet 3 conscripts upgrade into the soviet players doctrinal infantry once the cp are attained. This would recycle the manpower and allow a better transition mid to late game. It would give the soviet player flexibility as they could keep the vetted cons or upgrade to the doctrinal infantry.

Vet 3 conscripts turning to guards sound like a good idea. But they can only get their fancy cape at their base i guess?

Units changing into others isn't a really good design IMO. Conscripts should be given a role, rather than being changed into a useful units because the devs can't be arsed to give them one.

And no, AT grenade dispenser is not a valid role.

I still think being able to upgrade them with something (PPS43? RPD? DPs?) after T3 or T4 is built would be a solution. A much needed DPS boost for them, nothing too fancy but better thsn their Mosins and allowing your conscripts, if vetted, to actually contribute to the fight rather than just be slaughtered every time something scarier than Pios look in their general direction. Or maybe extra armor like Shocks for a bit more durability. Or lend-lease bazookas so they can become swarming tank hunters.

Something.

Units changing into others isn't a really good design IMO. Conscripts should be given a role, rather than being changed into a useful units because the devs can't be arsed to give them one.

And no, AT grenade dispenser is not a valid role.

I still think being able to upgrade them with something (PPS43? RPD? DPs?) after T3 or T4 is built would be a solution. A much needed DPS boost for them, nothing too fancy but better thsn their Mosins and allowing your conscripts, if vetted, to actually contribute to the fight rather than just be slaughtered every time something scarier than Pios look in their general direction. Or maybe extra armor like Shocks for a bit more durability. Or lend-lease bazookas so they can become swarming tank hunters.

Something.

Definitely not bazooka. Anything Russian made I'm fine.

Upgrades are incredibly hard to balance, so I'd advise against that. I've explained it countless times, but upgrades basically mean that units get more cost-efficient and eclipse stronger, but less cost efficient units. For example LMG Grens and PGrens.

The comparison between Cons and Grens is to a degree lacking. You seem to have listed only the parts where Grenadiers are better than Conscripts, but forget other points. The size of the squad for example is a major difference when trying to disable tanks, same for the Oorah ability. Their merge ability is also rather strong since infantry armor was removed. Merging with Guards or Penals has no downside, but saves a lot of cost and popcap. Besides that, Conscripts are already less popcap than Grenadiers, so the high AI strength of the latter comes at a higher popcap.

I personally do not see a big problem with Conscripts balance wise. They fulfill the roles they were designed for, to be aggressive harassing units early and a tank screen / meat shield lategame.

A lategame upgrade like Arclyte suggested, to make them cheaper popcap wise sounds interesting, but I am not sure if it is possible. If you just reduced the cost/popcap per entity then I do not think it would cause people to use more Conscripts lategame, but would just be a buff to the merge ability. You can already have a Guards squad for the popcap of a Conscript if you merge instead of reinforcing, a further cost decrease would make that even better. AFAIK the only way to do it would be some squad modifier, reducing the popcap of the squad or such, that would probably work.

Personally I feel they are fine, but if they would need a lategame improvement I would try to increase their utility rather than their combat strength with an upgrade. Faction diversity and balance are my reasons for that. If I want good AI scaling I get Grens, if I want great AT scaling I get Volks, if I want great AI / mediocre AT scaling I get Rifles - but if I want good utility scaling I get Cons.

Good utility scaling? So conscripts exist just to merge and throw AT nades? Even the biggest axis fanboy would admit that sounds lame as hell.

I'm not sure what utility scaling conscripts get. Merge is used to save, what, 10 mp per model when using it on Guards? like 2-3 when on penals? And is a bit of a hassle to use. Ooorah + AT nade is nice, but you pay for it with fuel and it doesn't work on supported tanks, or fast vehicles, or on heavies you can't reach the flanks of.

''Utility'' scaling is very situational, while the scaling of other base infantry is reliable; you will almost always see LMG grens, Shreck volks and upgraded rifles, because it works. Merge and Ooorah pale before that in almost all situations.

Besides, the upgrade would be nothing dramatic, 30-40 ammo for some DPS boost, and I specifically want it to require T3 or T4 in order to avoid conscripts outpacing other infantry. The idea is more that they can play catch-up and can contribute late game if microed, rather than just be there to die and chuck AT nades.

Alternatively, just give the option for an upgrade once they reach vet 3, to symbolize a transition from lowly conscripts to full on Frontowiki (sp?) squads like in the campaign.

yes i remember your posts about giving units upgrades, milkacow. i guess it becomes an endless cycle of compensating unit strength with more abilities. this also becomes a pain to balance.

Yes they do have utility, but they get shredded trying to run after tanks. It would be nice if they got some nice vet bonuses or late game love. It is a shame that players work hard in the early game to get their conscripts vetted, but then they don't seem to have much use past the midgame

What if instead of upgrading their weapons conscripts could upgrade their squad size? Adding 2-3 more models would give the squad more dps but not as much as a LMG would add. More importantly the extra bodies would make the squad more survivable late game so it could be better as a meat shield, at nade platform, and better at merging into other squads.

it's already hard to find cover that is big enough for 6 men. I know where you're going but I don't think that's the answer.

What if instead of upgrading their weapons conscripts could upgrade their squad size? Adding 2-3 more models would give the squad more dps but not as much as a LMG would add. More importantly the extra bodies would make the squad more survivable late game so it could be better as a meat shield, at nade platform, and better at merging into other squads.

that's a very interesting idea and i like it although i am not sure how that could fit "history-wise". Perhaps they should spawn an officer that would boost their combat abilities?

it's already hard to find cover that is big enough for 6 men. I know where you're going but I don't think that's the answer.

They would definitely bleed. Maybe a reduction in reinforce cost as well.

In any case I like the way relic handled the IG in DoW2. IG squads started kinda weak but could be upgraded with officers to increase size and decrease reinforce cost until they turned into really efficient front line infantry. I see that as one possible direction for conscripts.

Yea guardsman should be an inspiration for relic if they're not already. Conscripts should be numerous and cheap.

I think what could be interesting is when conscripts reach vet 3, they are promoted to Strelky squads with increased stats and also are "permitted" to buy some higher tier weapon upgrades like SVT's, PTRS's, or DP's, or whatever have you. Veterancy rate can be modified if need be. I think it would give conscripts a lot more late game, and make them have to earn it instead of just being an upgrade. It would give Soviets a more elite non-doctrinal ability that would appear late game, but keep it unique to Soviets in that they have to be earned rather than bought.