State of Balance - August - ID

The ost strength is armor and line infantry. Panzer Grenadiers are grenadiers with assault rifles and bundle nades. They also upgrade into the best anti tank infantry in the game.

Pg's are used for flanking and ambush tactics. The extra cost is for the ability to upgrade into the best at infantry in the game. You also get the bundle nade ability. The high upkeep is to prevent spamming.

Pg's with the cloak ability are absolutely devastating with the ambush bonus. You can literally sit beside a stone wall with a tank on the otherside of the wall and still be cloaked.

Kill one at gun with a pg bundle nade and you have paid for the squad. Also try not to forget that PG come in doctrines with armored transport. You buff pg's you change balance on other units too!

There are also doctrines that make massing pg's more economical. Any doctrine that returns ostruppen with lost soldiers ect. Pg's with the speed boost doctrine ability absolutely rape the battlefield as well with multiple sqauds.

The real problem is that grenadiers over perform therefore spamming grens is the most chosen option. Reduce the effectiveness of grens and you will soon see alot more PG's.

So so so many different uses of panzergrenadiers u offer,we must be using them wrong.Its a matter of player skill i guess.Wonder then why in these tourney matches no one uses them as u prescribe.pros have a problem with skill?

Certainly grenadiers should be nerfed.This will finally fix the faction.Don't worry though,with lmg nerf,u can get ur wish vs 'annoying' grens,and we can get around to finally deleting this forgotten faction.
Strength is infantry and armor?- it has one infantry and 1 armor.Neither of them the best in the game in their deptments.They are solid .And thats how this crippled factrion has been hanging on for 6 months-1 infantry,1 tank ,question is how long?
This is unprecedented in coh history of all factions-this complete one dimensional play.

Haha watch what you say about grenadiers overperforming. You are gonna get some serious flak.


But I do agree though about grenadiers. Not sure if they are overperforming but they are very very annoying when they are blobbed and all equipped with an lmg. A lone grenadier squad or one without upgrades is fine but when they are en massed, it is crazy good

Annoying?You must get annoyed pretty quick then..let's see whats really annoying -
Maximspam,sniperspam,cheat unit isu,dirt cheap call-in spam read t-34/85 and e8,6 min AA halftrack,0 cp jeep,1919 blobs,oh yeah and ur only inf unit losing at all ranges to rifles .
Ur annoyed at gren blob...what would u do vs 1919 blobs dear friend...

So so so many different uses of panzergrenadiers u offer,we must be using them wrong.Its a matter of player skill i guess.Wonder then why in these tourney matches no one uses them as u prescribe.pros have a problem with skill?

Certainly grenadiers should be nerfed.This will finally fix the faction.Don't worry though,with lmg nerf,u can get ur wish vs 'annoying' grens,and we can get around to finally deleting this forgotten faction.
Strength is infantry and armor?- it has one infantry and 1 armor.Neither of them the best in the game in their deptments.They are solid .And thats how this crippled factrion has been hanging on for 6 months-1 infantry,1 tank ,question is how long?
This is unprecedented in coh history of all factions-this complete one dimensional play.

Honestly I think most core infantry need to be toned down. When I say grenadiers are over performing it also means conscripts are over performing too. There was a patch that increased the lethality of core infantry and although it had the effect of making engagements decided quicker it had the adverse effect of pushing some of the higher tier infantry into the corner.

Most top players use Grens because they are good at unit preservation. Usually at the start of the match they spam Grens. By the time pg's become available the players already have vetted Grens which they will upgrade with lmg's. Having around 4 to 6 sqauds of Grens a few mg's and a mortar most of these players have all the infantry popcap and mp they are willing to invest. Now they are teching working towards armor. If they lose a squad they build more Grens because now they are down manpower and Grens are cheaper and get incredible bang for your buck. Not to mention long rang dps and attack move.

As for pg you can't really attack move them and that means more micro. When top players are playing they are already maxing out their micro skills and adding higher micro units into their army makes their job harder. So again cheaper high dps long range attack move units are a better choice aka lmg Grens. So this what I mean by Grens over perform. Also with Grens you don't need flankers because you can just use multiple rifle grenades over hedges or buildings. You can spam Faust too so with these options all in one package top players do not waste their time with pg's.

Honestly I think most core infantry need to be toned down. When I say grenadiers are over performing it also means conscripts are over performing too. There was a patch that increased the lethality of core infantry and although it had the effect of making engagements decided quicker it had the adverse effect of pushing some of the higher tier infantry into the corner.

Fun thing about that is that conscripts can't do shit against OKW units after the first 5 minutes of the game now. If you toned them down even further from that, I couldn't even play conscript heavy against people over 100 ranks below me anymore and would have to start with maxims or snipers every single game.

PGs are perfectly fine against USF, the stupidly glass cannon of nature (even more so than PGs) of riflemen makes a very high DPS unit like PGs extremely effective when they can start a fight on their terms. It's against soviets where PGs suffer because their most efficient ranges are also far more efficient for soviet infantry than the ranges grenadiers engage at. They can be very effective as an ambush unit, but they're also high risk due to the reinforcement cost so generally you just don't bother and just get more grens, the ever safe choice.

Fun thing about that is that conscripts can't do shit against OKW units after the first 5 minutes of the game now. If you toned them down even further from that, I couldn't even play conscript heavy against people over 100 ranks below me anymore and would have to start with maxims or snipers every single game.

PGs are perfectly fine against USF, the stupidly glass cannon of nature (even more so than PGs) of riflemen makes a very high DPS unit like PGs extremely effective when they can start a fight on their terms. It's against soviets where PGs suffer because their most efficient ranges are also far more efficient for soviet infantry than the ranges grenadiers engage at. They can be very effective as an ambush unit, but they're also high risk due to the reinforcement cost so generally you just don't bother and just get more grens, the ever safe choice.

Talk's cheap,u being a pro i would like to see u use couple of pzgren squads to pwn usa in tourneys.

Talk's cheap,u being a pro i would like to see u use couple of pzgren squads to pwn usa in tourneys.

"Being spammable and a-moveable" isn't an indicator of units performance you know.

Not every valid unit is spammable.

But then again, we don't talk rank 10.000 and up here.

"Being spammable and a-moveable" isn't an indicator of units performance you know.

Not every valid unit is spammable.

But then again, we don't talk rank 10.000 and up here.

Using 2 units is spam........lol.
If the unit is so very fine why do pros not use it regularly in these tourney games ?Certainly they are not rank 10,000 .

Oh, I don't know, maybe because LMG weapons overperform and squads that are effective on range shorter then long are sub optimal?

But that still isn't pgrens fault.

Oh, I don't know, maybe because LMG weapons overperform and squads that are effective on range shorter then long are sub optimal?

But that still isn't pgrens fault.

And despite that, shocks perform superbly for just 50 MP more..and they have to come to even closer range.

Against competent opponent who knows how to play?
Superbly wouldn't be the word I'd use.

Also it might have something to do with shocks being doctrinal purely AI specialists that fight with clubs while pgrens are versatile stock squad.

Against competent opponent who knows how to play?
Superbly wouldn't be the word I'd use.

Also it might have something to do with shocks being purely AI specialists that fight with clubs while pgrens are versatile stock squad.

Very well,but u can't deny they perform on par ar above for their price.

And second issue has just become a excuse to keep ostheer one infantry faction now.Poor design..give ostheer 1 advanced infantry option-then hostage it with shreck performance,and use this as an excuse to keep the unit dead.

(if you mesn PGs)Compared to what? Penals, which are the only other none doctrinal relatively early game infantry that isn't main infantry?

They aren't worse then sturmpios at all.

(if you mean shocks)They perform as good as german player allows them to. If you are bad with bad micro, they will excel.

If you are good, they will at best come out with 1:1 kill death ratio, causing as much attrition on the user as opponent.

(if you mesn PGs)Compared to what? Penals, which are the only other none doctrinal relatively early game infantry that isn't main infantry?

They aren't worse then sturmpios at all.

(if you mean shocks)They perform as good as german player allows them to. If you are bad with bad micro, they will excel.

If you are good, they will at best come out with 1:1 kill death ratio, causing as much attrition on the user as opponent.

So did i say penals can't be buffed..i have stated numerous times they should.But soviets can fall back on shocks even without using penals as elite infantry,ostheer can only use one type and this has been going on for 6 months now.
And why should the advanced infantry of ostheer be worse than basic unit of OKW?Sturmpios feel better because they operate early,when focus firing units is much less efficient.
And 1:1 ratio is not good enough for a advanced infantry squad exchanging with basic inf.
Not really,shocks ..also depend on map,soviet players micro and luck..meaning (how far u saw them coming due to truesight effect in meeting engagements).
Shocks 2 more members,smoke plus how the hell for 50 mp 5 times better survivability modifier?
5 times?wtf.

Just a small (and for the moment unneeded) reminder to keep this civilised before things heat up

It's not a 5 times better modifier. I can't find the exact stats, but unless panzgrenadiers have a received accuracy modifier that is higher than 0.93, it's not 5 times lower that the modifier for shocks.

The 2 more members translate perfectly fine into overal axis superior DPS per model compared to their soviet counterparts.

It's not a 5 times better modifier. I can't find the exact stats, but unless panzgrenadiers have a received accuracy modifier that is higher than 0.93, it's not 5 times lower that the modifier for shocks.

The 2 more members translate perfectly fine into overall axis superior DPS per model compared to their soviet counterparts.

Panzergrenadiesr recieve .87 recieved accuracy modifier.Thats 13 in 100 shots will miss or more likely 1 in 10 shots.
Shocks on the other hand absorb 1 in 2 shots.thats 5 times better.

And that DPS counts for nothing because it will drop models very quickly and then its DPS rapidly falls.Shocks with 6 members have their DPS much more spread out,with less chance of squad wipe,a smoke to approach and 5 TIMES better survivability modifier for 50 mp.

@austerlitz, is so hard to understand that shocks are doctrinal and thus chosing them means that you don't have guards or another abilities/call-ins?? Meanwhile you can always have Pgrens to support any ost build.
And that they are a pure AI unit unlike PGrens who are multipurpose and can effectively destroy tanks?

I don't understand why you obsessively try to compare both units when their roles are so different. Compare Pgrens with Guards which have a more similar AI/AT role.

@austerlitz, is so hard to understand that shocks are doctrinal and thus chosing them means that you don't have guards or another abilities/call-ins?? Meanwhile you can always have Pgrens to support any ost build.
And that they are a pure AI unit unlike PGrens who are multipurpose and can effectively destroy tanks?

I don't understand why you obsessively try to compare both units when their roles are so different. Compare Pgrens with Guards which have a more similar AI/AT role.

Is it so difficult to understand that soviets have access to call-in infantry while ostheer must do with its stock infantry by design,and by invalidating its only advanced infantry its crippling the faction to 1 infantry unit gameplay?This AT role has become a smokescreen to keep this unit redundant..the shreck phobia is a hostage that will permanently keep the unit extinct if its not adressed.

Guards have 6 men and attack at long range..far far better survivability.They can do both in jack of trades role simulteaneously.
While with pzgrens u have to make a conscious choice.

But most important of all,not using guards doesn't relegate soviets to 1 infantry faction..while keeping pzgren extinct does.Here is the crutch-pzgrens being viable is extremely necessary for any diverse ostheer play as they don't have any other options..while soviets have multiple other options.So either buff pzgrens survivability or redesign them by seperating AT from AI.But do something that ends 6 months monotonous grenadier blobbing.

Quick free math lesson for aus:

1:1,5=66%.

This means shocks block 33% of shots, which is far from 50%.
And this goes even lower against LMG squads, because received accuracy is superior def stat to armor.

Panzergrenadiesr recieve .87 recieved accuracy modifier.Thats 13 in 100 shots will miss or more likely 1 in 10 shots.
Shocks on the other hand absorb 1 in 2 shots.thats 5 times better.

And that DPS counts for nothing because it will drop models very quickly and then its DPS rapidly falls.Shocks with 6 members have their DPS much more spread out,with less chance of squad wipe,a smoke to approach and 5 TIMES better survivability modifier for 50 mp.

First of, 5x13 = 65. So it would be even less than 4 times as good IF shocks absorbed 1 in 2 bullets. You can't just say 0.13 = 0.1. It does not work that way. HOWEVER, Shocks only absorb 1 in 3 shots. And only of those with a penetration of 1. Shocks only have 1.5 armor. To absorb 1 in 2 shots, you need 2 armor. Chance to do damage on hit is Penetration/armor = 1/1.5 = 0.66. So in reality, Shocks armor modifier is only 2.5 times as good as panzergren accuracy bonus, and 100% worse against anything with more than 1.5 penetration.

The DPS does count for something when considering model count between the armies. Just look at how fast a 4-man partisan squad gets wiped by a gren squad, compared to how fast a 4-men gren squad gets wiped by a conscript squad.