Panzergrenadier rework
22 Aug 2014, 16:11 PM
#21
Posts: 578
I think next patch might see them getting a buff. Relic knows Ostheer under-performs vs USF in the early/midgame and part of the reason is the uselessness of PGrens.
22 Aug 2014, 16:17 PM
#22
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
.87...it doesn't feel that way. Maybe I'm using them wrong. It feels like they are no better than cons really. Maybe it's just because most of my engagements have been vs shocks. If anything a little 5 or 10 percent penetration could be added to mp44 close range/mid range to help even out the shock/pg matchup some. Shocks should still win 1:1, but would not leave the battle ready for the next.
2 PGs will always win against shocks.
1 PG will always loose.
Nothing wrong with it, PGs are not counter to shocks, LMG grens are as LMG got penetration.
PGs are not intended shock counter, they don't even have same role of close quarters squad.
PGs for shocks are exactly what T34 is for P4, this is no reason to buff PGs just as it is no reason to buff T34.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
22 Aug 2014, 16:20 PM
#23
Posts: 2779
Sturmpio are 320 but I see no better side on PG though they are more expensive.
There is no need for Ostheer getting STG44 squad while LMG Grens outshine PG in all aspect, unless you need some screck.
There is no need for Ostheer getting STG44 squad while LMG Grens outshine PG in all aspect, unless you need some screck.
22 Aug 2014, 16:28 PM
#24
Posts: 950 | Subs: 1
.87...it doesn't feel that way. Maybe I'm using them wrong. It feels like they are no better than cons really.
2 extra entities adds a lot more durability than .87 received accuracy
22 Aug 2014, 16:44 PM
#25
Posts: 183
I think next patch might see them getting a buff. Relic knows Ostheer under-performs vs USF in the early/midgame and part of the reason is the uselessness of PGrens.
Yeah, the Same for USF against Ostheer OR Okw in Late Game. Game Design Error.
22 Aug 2014, 16:50 PM
#26
Posts: 390
Permanently BannedYep it's a hard game design error and I won't play this game until the massive shit is fixed. It's ridiculous and I won't buy this single player add on.
22 Aug 2014, 16:54 PM
#27
Posts: 2779
Yeah, the Same for USF against Ostheer OR Okw in Late Game. Game Design Error.
Biggest flaw in Ostheer vs USF:
Both faction need to tech, Ostheer pay the teching cost, just for the advisor saying something, you still need the pio building it. USF tech, they get an elite infantry officer squad, and still not needed the RE building it.
22 Aug 2014, 17:00 PM
#28
Posts: 38
2 PGs will always win against shocks.
1 PG will always loose.
Nothing wrong with it, PGs are not counter to shocks, LMG grens are as LMG got penetration.
PGs are not intended shock counter, they don't even have same role of close quarters squad.
PGs for shocks are exactly what T34 is for P4, this is no reason to buff PGs just as it is no reason to buff T34.
It's not good comparison, because t-34 will usually loose to p4, and Pg will always loose to shocks(as you wrote)
But yeah, they have different roles on the battlefield...
Anyway, reducing reiforcement cost would be good idea.
22 Aug 2014, 17:06 PM
#29
Posts: 1158
LMG grens are shock food. Even 2:1 grens are unlikely to succeed. Just to keep them alive you have to retreat before shocks get close. That's assuming grens are spaced away from each other. The LMG is also clumsy and it's optimal range is countered with smoke. So although the LMG is set to have better performance than stg44, the overall lower rof and lack of stopping power means that gren+HMG is going to be more effective than gren+more grens. To me the LMG is more of a soft counter because of the way shocks are used and how fast they dispatch of grens. It seems to me like PG's have to be used defensively until the vet2 bonus, then they can be more offensive. I'm trying to use them in each game, but they are not paying off infantry-wise.
29 Jul 2014, 12:16 PM by siuking666:
T34/76 is NOT a joke on my hands; Maybe on your hands you make it suck shit? but on me, No. I can kill a stug with a little micro, go toe to toe with a Panzer 4. Is it a joke? LOL T34/85 is apparently a very good tank. But no one says it "one hit wipe" or elefant penetration; up to a point i think this little medium tank just have too much health and too much firepower with that fuel cost.
22 Aug 2014, 17:20 PM
#30
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
It's not good comparison, because t-34 will usually loose to p4, and Pg will always loose to shocks(as you wrote)
But yeah, they have different roles on the battlefield...
Anyway, reducing reiforcement cost would be good idea.
Not really. Get position advantage, land good nade and you'll chase off shocks. There is also this hipster stuff, ambush camo, which makes PGs win easily against shocks.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
22 Aug 2014, 18:15 PM
#31
Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2
thats exactly what it is. so vet 2 pgrens have .6177 received accuracy.
I guess my wild aproximation was right
So it goes from 1,15± to 1,62± (in term of armor and for comparison)
Instead of this wild changes that are been mentioned, i´m gonna say it again:
-Vet1 boring useless medkits + (-)15% received accuracy
-Vet2 -20% receive accuracy + (-)25%cooldown
This would make the scaling to vet2 a bit less drastic, increasing a bit survivability early on.
Note: i know that it would mean a bit more extra less received accuracy but it´s not as significant
Vet0 = 0.87 / 1.15±
Vet1 = 0.7395 / 1.35±
Vet2 = 0.5916 (0.6177) / 1.69± (1.62±)
My controls weren't working
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.
Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.
Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.
22 Aug 2014, 19:18 PM
#32
Posts: 1705
So essentially what?How long does this 1 infantry unit thing go on?
With lmg nerf..grens are done..then what?
This point .13 percent less chance of being hit is literally miniscule and rather useless.1 in 10 shots will not hit it.Compare to shocks..1 out of 2 shots absorbed(i know flame pierces it).For 50 mp massive difference- 5 times more.....Plus 6 men and smoke to advance.Panzergrenadiers drop 2 models just to close and use the grenade animation.
This is why i said split the unit into an AI version and an shreck carrier version,will be far easier to balance.
Or at least add a model while keeping DPS same.
At its current state its not worth more than 300 MP.
With lmg nerf..grens are done..then what?
This point .13 percent less chance of being hit is literally miniscule and rather useless.1 in 10 shots will not hit it.Compare to shocks..1 out of 2 shots absorbed(i know flame pierces it).For 50 mp massive difference- 5 times more.....Plus 6 men and smoke to advance.Panzergrenadiers drop 2 models just to close and use the grenade animation.
This is why i said split the unit into an AI version and an shreck carrier version,will be far easier to balance.
Or at least add a model while keeping DPS same.
At its current state its not worth more than 300 MP.
22 Aug 2014, 19:29 PM
#33
Posts: 1158
Not really. Get position advantage, land good nade and you'll chase off shocks. There is also this hipster stuff, ambush camo, which makes PGs win easily against shocks.
I was using ambush camo against the shock spammer where I could. Against anything but shocks it's amazingly good with grenadiers. It's awesome with hmg as well if you can get enough cover to hide all the men. Smoke messes it up with the hmg though. I have not had good luck using it with PG's though.
29 Jul 2014, 12:16 PM by siuking666:
T34/76 is NOT a joke on my hands; Maybe on your hands you make it suck shit? but on me, No. I can kill a stug with a little micro, go toe to toe with a Panzer 4. Is it a joke? LOL T34/85 is apparently a very good tank. But no one says it "one hit wipe" or elefant penetration; up to a point i think this little medium tank just have too much health and too much firepower with that fuel cost.
22 Aug 2014, 19:32 PM
#34
Posts: 1705
I was using ambush camo against the shock spammer where I could. Against anything but shocks it's amazingly good with grenadiers. It's awesome with hmg as well if you can get enough cover to hide all the men. Smoke messes it up with the hmg though. I have not had good luck using it with PG's though.
Which doctrine u using in ambush camoflage?
Also did u try playing with panthers as ur armor as ost?
22 Aug 2014, 19:35 PM
#35
Posts: 1158
I don't know the name of the commander. He's got the ambush, the riegal mines, lef, that speed boost for infantry, and some other thing.
yea I got like 3 of them in that game to help me own ISU152's. They did a great job too.
yea I got like 3 of them in that game to help me own ISU152's. They did a great job too.
29 Jul 2014, 12:16 PM by siuking666:
T34/76 is NOT a joke on my hands; Maybe on your hands you make it suck shit? but on me, No. I can kill a stug with a little micro, go toe to toe with a Panzer 4. Is it a joke? LOL T34/85 is apparently a very good tank. But no one says it "one hit wipe" or elefant penetration; up to a point i think this little medium tank just have too much health and too much firepower with that fuel cost.
22 Aug 2014, 19:45 PM
#36
Posts: 1705
I don't know the name of the commander. He's got the ambush, the riegal mines, lef, that speed boost for infantry, and some other thing.
yea I got like 3 of them in that game to help me own ISU152's. They did a great job too.
Ok i get it that commander.
Keep going on panther.
22 Aug 2014, 19:52 PM
#37
Posts: 1158
Panther is the best tank in this game to me. I'm thinking of making a gif one panther I had that destroyed a ton of stuff in quick succession causing the end of the game.
29 Jul 2014, 12:16 PM by siuking666:
T34/76 is NOT a joke on my hands; Maybe on your hands you make it suck shit? but on me, No. I can kill a stug with a little micro, go toe to toe with a Panzer 4. Is it a joke? LOL T34/85 is apparently a very good tank. But no one says it "one hit wipe" or elefant penetration; up to a point i think this little medium tank just have too much health and too much firepower with that fuel cost.
22 Aug 2014, 20:04 PM
#38
Posts: 950 | Subs: 1
Panther is the best tank in this game to me.
hahahah sorry but thats hilarious. possibly the funniest thing ive read on these forums. you wouldve been correct had you written that 14 months ago.
22 Aug 2014, 20:06 PM
#39
Posts: 1158
how can I be incorrect in opinion? The panther has no weakness other than a perceived high expense and that varies from player to player. Performance wise, it has no weakness.
29 Jul 2014, 12:16 PM by siuking666:
T34/76 is NOT a joke on my hands; Maybe on your hands you make it suck shit? but on me, No. I can kill a stug with a little micro, go toe to toe with a Panzer 4. Is it a joke? LOL T34/85 is apparently a very good tank. But no one says it "one hit wipe" or elefant penetration; up to a point i think this little medium tank just have too much health and too much firepower with that fuel cost.
22 Aug 2014, 20:24 PM
#40
Posts: 950 | Subs: 1
how can I be incorrect in opinion? The panther has no weakness other than a perceived high expense and that varies from player to player. Performance wise, it has no weakness.
you can have your own opinion, but saying it has no weakness is just wrong. its main gun is less accurate against infantry than an elefants. its rear armor can be reliably penned by just about anything. it also has a slow rate of fire.
combine that with costing more than a tiger thanks to teching and its awful.
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