Shocks

20-40 kills on a single gren squad is very common.

I had a conscript squad with that many kills once. It was when I picked up an LMG34.

I had a conscript squad with that many kills once. It was when I picked up an LMG34.

Or a Volksgrenadier squad with a BAR rifle.

Or a Volksgrenadier squad with a BAR rifle.

LMG34 has twice the DPS of BAR's, or any LMG for that matter. I usually find the BAR to slightly improve AI, compared to the LMG34 which out-DPS's the other 5 mosins combined.

At least volks can upgrade with a panzerschreck and actually support with AT. Not bad for costing 235 manpower.

LMG34 has twice the DPS of BAR's, or any LMG for that matter. I usually find the BAR to slightly improve AI, compared to the LMG34 which out-DPS's the other 5 mosins combined.

At least volks can upgrade with a panzerschreck and actually support with AT. Not bad for costing 235 manpower.

I didn't say it has same damage as LMG34, just that you can get to that kill amount with such a rifle. It is still a massive upgrade for a Kar98.

I once got 3 lmg34 on 3 of my vet con squads. My god those were some lucky fellows. I literally attack moved around the map wiping more ober squads and others. The cons took little or no damage. There were extra lmg34's lying around the map as a result. That weapon is really strong.

Yeah, I think the MG34 alone makes up a bit more than half of the Ober's total DPS or something like that. If you capture it, it's an incredible murdermachine. I actually got on on a rear echelon squad (was forced to grab it or lose it) and they ended up with 25 kills or something along those lines. That showed my Rifles with their puny BARs.

Also, if someone wants a relay, check the one that's posted on the highlight, Barton vs HelpingHans. Barton generally got outplayed, but he managed to counter his foe's Shocks pretty well.

1. It does not take IQ of >160 to expect smoke/see it, then to move your units farther away from the smoke.

2. Armor acts almost identically with reduced incoming accuracy modifier which many wher and okw units have except armor is slightly worse.

3. extremely high dps at hugging range. yes it is funny to see your units drop like flies even at hugging range but anything short from that shocks do so little damage.

4. Falls and Obers are not similar squads.

5. They are more survivable then other squads due to the fact that they have to close in to do the damage.

1) Squads moving backwards can't fire on a Shocktrooper squad. Also, it forces squads which may otherwise be in a very advantageous position of cover to be forced to move out of that cover into open ground (which is exactly what a Shocktrooper player wants).

2) True, it does. However, most squads left with incoming accuracy modifiers are 4 man squads (Obers, Falschirms) whereas shocks are 6 man squads. Their effective HP is, like, half(This may be an exaggeration but it is something to that effect) of the HP pool of a shocktrooper. These squads are far more vulnerable to small arms and are nowhere near as effective as straight-up charging up to the enemy or executing flanks because they die much faster.

3) Not hugging range. The short end of mid range and short range itself is when Shocktrooper DPS becomes noticeable. Even if shocktroopers start at long range, generally they can force a retreat on single, lone squads simply by charging up against them. The only squads in the game with enough DPS at long and mid range to be able to stop a shocktrooper squad from simply charging up are Obers, Falschirms and Gren LMGs.

4) They're high DPS elite infantry. I was actually saying Falschirms are very similar in role to Obersoldaten with the IR upgrade (Which effectively makes them a short/mid range squad).

5) The fact they have to close in means nothing considering how huge their HP pool is. It's the largest for any infantry squad in the game.

1) Squads moving backwards can't fire on a Shocktrooper squad. Also, it forces squads which may otherwise be in a very advantageous position of cover to be forced to move out of that cover into open ground (which is exactly what a Shocktrooper player wants).

2) True, it does. However, most squads left with incoming accuracy modifiers are 4 man squads (Obers, Falschirms) whereas shocks are 6 man squads. Their effective HP is, like, half(This may be an exaggeration but it is something to that effect) of the HP pool of a shocktrooper. These squads are far more vulnerable to small arms and are nowhere near as effective as straight-up charging up to the enemy or executing flanks because they die much faster.

3) Not hugging range. The short end of mid range and short range itself is when Shocktrooper DPS becomes noticeable. Even if shocktroopers start at long range, generally they can force a retreat on single, lone squads simply by charging up against them. The only squads in the game with enough DPS at long and mid range to be able to stop a shocktrooper squad from simply charging up are Obers, Falschirms and Gren LMGs.

4) They're high DPS elite infantry. I was actually saying Falschirms are very similar in role to Obersoldaten with the IR upgrade (Which effectively makes them a short/mid range squad).

5) The fact they have to close in means nothing considering how huge their HP pool is. It's the largest for any infantry squad in the game.

1. if a lone squad is caught by shocks they should retreat like you mention in #3. if you have a support, they can shoot while one soft paddles away from shocks, all the better. and smoke grenades denying cover to the enemy by blocking sight etc etc is one of its purpose.

2/5. obers and falls have great long distance dps. why would they charge up. the fact that shocks are the toughest squad has everything to do with the fact that they have to close in.

3. fine not hugging range but very close range. so you think sov player using 390mp +37mp X 2(or 3 for reinforcement) to retreat a probably 240mp unit a good trade for him? i rather get a 400mp long range terminator squad that annihilates units at long range without taking much damage.

4. sorry i thought you meant falls and obers are similar to shocks.

I feel shocks shouldn't be touched until stock soviet infantry get late game buffs(not early game).
However once that is done and maxim fixed..then u can do comparisons of relative effectiveness of shocks,falls,pzgrens,obers etc.

I do feel though at current state if lmgs get the nerf they deserve and shocks stay the same..we are going to have a 'happy time' for shock players.

Last night I faced a shock spammer. I saved the replay and this guy literally on his build order did not make any infantry but maxim and shocks, lol. I screwed up bad in the early game, so I was at a disadvantage for that. This guy had at most 3 shocks to make assaults. The maxims weren't brought along, it was just 3 shock blob. I stupidly took waaaay too long to get an mg, but an mg is needed. Grens get wiped scary fast. It felt very similar to fighting the first Sturmpio squad with cons. Even retreating, they die on retreat. I'm just talking about 1 on 1, not the 3 shock blob all shooting 1 gren. It sucks to lose the vet I had, but I can accept them losing. What really left a bad taste was pgrens vs shocks. Pgrens get eaten alive and they are just a little less in cost from the shocks.

I don't think anything should be done to the shocks, in my case I could have done better with an ostwind to deal with the blob, but I do think pgrens need a little more durability. Pgrens should likely still lose 1:1 but it should not be so overwhelming unless their cost and pop are reduced.

Shocks need a nerf and Pgrens need a buff.

Last night I faced a shock spammer. I saved the replay and this guy literally on his build order did not make any infantry but maxim and shocks, lol. I screwed up bad in the early game, so I was at a disadvantage for that. This guy had at most 3 shocks to make assaults. The maxims weren't brought along, it was just 3 shock blob. I stupidly took waaaay too long to get an mg, but an mg is needed. Grens get wiped scary fast. It felt very similar to fighting the first Sturmpio squad with cons. Even retreating, they die on retreat. I'm just talking about 1 on 1, not the 3 shock blob all shooting 1 gren. It sucks to lose the vet I had, but I can accept them losing. What really left a bad taste was pgrens vs shocks. Pgrens get eaten alive and they are just a little less in cost from the shocks.

I don't think anything should be done to the shocks, in my case I could have done better with an ostwind to deal with the blob, but I do think pgrens need a little more durability. Pgrens should likely still lose 1:1 but it should not be so overwhelming unless their cost and pop are reduced.

PG + Pio/Gren/MG: you need another unit to support it or soak up damage.

I wouldn´t touch PG stats rather than maybe a tweak on reinforcement cost/price. Thing is that you are just better saving 60muni and getting an LMG gren which is a way safer option and less micro demanding. PG will still remain an excellent option for wiping squads on retreat, clearing support weapons and a potential AT platform.

Last night I faced a shock spammer. I saved the replay and this guy literally on his build order did not make any infantry but maxim and shocks, lol. I screwed up bad in the early game, so I was at a disadvantage for that. This guy had at most 3 shocks to make assaults. The maxims weren't brought along, it was just 3 shock blob. I stupidly took waaaay too long to get an mg, but an mg is needed. Grens get wiped scary fast. It felt very similar to fighting the first Sturmpio squad with cons. Even retreating, they die on retreat. I'm just talking about 1 on 1, not the 3 shock blob all shooting 1 gren. It sucks to lose the vet I had, but I can accept them losing. What really left a bad taste was pgrens vs shocks. Pgrens get eaten alive and they are just a little less in cost from the shocks.

I don't think anything should be done to the shocks, in my case I could have done better with an ostwind to deal with the blob, but I do think pgrens need a little more durability. Pgrens should likely still lose 1:1 but it should not be so overwhelming unless their cost and pop are reduced.

The good thing about shocks is that their path is predictable. They NEED to go as close as possible to your units. If you see shock spam, always mine the opposite site of your cover and wait for them. Pioneers mine field are also amazing to stop shocks incursions.

Also, any light/medium AI vehicle is just overkill for them. Usually you don't follow shocks with maxims or ZiS behind. They're assault and harassing units, so even a useless flameHT can send them to their base with their tails between their legs.
Ostwind or a Luch are just ultra-hard-counter for them.

And finally, a drawback that shocks have is that they can't kill retreating units as effectively as gren/lmg, obers or any other long-range unit. Unless you let them engulf your troops by them you could always have a safe retreat.

I'll have to look at the replay again to be sure, but I remember an instance I had 1 shock squad run up on my vet2 lmg gren squad. There was a PG squad about mid range away. My guys were behind a light cover tree. Shocks used no smoke just ran through the open ground and before they even stopped in front of the grens all 4 were dead. No grenades. Then they ran at the PG's and forced a retreat on them, can't remember if they made it out alive. I always had support for each of my squads. At one point I had a scout car on them, it did ok. I don't think I used it the right way though, it was up too close and I almost lost it, lol. That's not really an issue with shocks or sc, that's just me.

I'll have to look at the replay again to be sure, but I remember an instance I had 1 shock squad run up on my vet2 lmg gren squad. There was a PG squad about mid range away. My guys were behind a light cover tree. Shocks used no smoke just ran through the open ground and before they even stopped in front of the grens all 4 were dead. No grenades. Then they ran at the PG's and forced a retreat on them, can't remember if they made it out alive. I always had support for each of my squads. At one point I had a scout car on them, it did ok. I don't think I used it the right way though, it was up too close and I almost lost it, lol. That's not really an issue with shocks or sc, that's just me.

Yea, you better do look for that replay, because stats say this is a fairy tale.

You don't think shocks can do that? I'll check the replay when I get home from work. It was a very close game too, ended like 24/0 on VP's.

If you do upload the replay, please put at what minute the actual engagement it is.

I couldn't find it. Game was really long and I got invited to games so I gave up. I'll upload it if anyone wants to review the many shock battles, but the player rarely attacked with less than 2 shock squads. I found another mistake too, he actually did make a single con squad at the start, haha.

If someone wants to spam shocks now, I just get ostwind. It works well.

If someone wants to spam shocks now, I just get ostwind. It works well.

Let me try... : If someone wants to spam M3, I also get a Jagdtiger.

no. it's still Ostwind. Jagdtiger will miss and then you have long reload.

Seriously though, I know ostwind is not cheap, but shock spam isn't either.