Medium tank balance to make stuff more interesting.

So i think that at the moment, medium armor balance is a bit one directional in the sense that

the panzer IV is a better t-34/76 in every way, and the t-34/85 is a better PV IV in every way.
So im proposing some changes to change the way and add some assymetry to the whole thing and make it overall more interesting

T-34/76

Armor buffed to 180.
Cost upped to 110 fuel

PIV

Armor nerfed to 140
Gun penetration buffed to 120/140/160 (the same like a t-34/85)
Sight increased to 45 (not range, but how far it can see)
VET 2 increases frontal armor to 190

Sherman
Armor buff to 190
Fuel cost increased to 115 or 120

T-34/85

Armor buff to 200
Double call in price increased to 280

STUG III
Armor buff to 190
Fuel cost increase to 125
Health increase to 640.

Panther

Armor buff to 330
Rear armor from 110 to 80
VET 2 gives a rear armor boost to 120
Anti infantry potential matched to that of the PIV
range nerfed to 40

IS-2

Reload increased to 9 seconds
Damage from 160 to 240
AOE slightly reduced to prevent oneshots

su-85

Armor buffed to 180


Why these changes need to be done - at the moment, the t-34/76 is just a worse version of the P IV since it's gun got nerfed to basically match the panzer IV in terms of anti infantry performance when WFA hit, so buffing it's armor would make it a more interesting matchup here, same with the sherman. And the t-34/85 is basically just a better version of the PIV.

The thing here is that the stug III and Panzer IV would cost the same amount of fuel,
the STUG III would become the "safe option" which basically it's a better investment at vet 0.
However, making the PIV would become somewhat of a risky option, basically it being quite mediocre for it's price at 125 fuel, however, it would have incredibly good scaling with veterancy, basically becoming a slightly worse t-34/85 at vet 2. Pintle mounted machine gun and blitz would also justifiy the somewhat higher price. While the increased sight range would allow it to vet up since it would reduce the risk of it getting ambushed, and give it an advantage in 1v1 tank engagement because it would usually get the first shot off.

The t-34/85 armor buff wouldn't really matter againts anything but stugs and PIVs, which allready had their pen buffed.

Panther costs alot and is hard to get in 1v1, so it should perform much better than it should now. With the buffing of armor on soviet and american tanks it's superb penetration would no longer be "wasted".

IS-2 increased damage and lowered reload to give it more "flavor".

Interesting ideas, nothing I don't agree with. The Panzer IV for one I would definitely agree with, I would go further and suggest giving it 45 range. We're talking about a tank with a 3 man turret, a good looking Cupola and tons of hatches etc versus a T-34/76 with a 2 man turret, no cupola and inferior rangefinders/gunsights and training.

I can see an emphasis on range being with the Germans and punch being with the Soviets. Perhaps even change up the T-34's damage to say 170-180 to compensate.

So you're just going to make the P4 and STUGIII have the same fuel cost?
That makes no sense historically, and even Relic acknowledged that the STUGIII cost was roughly 2/3 of P4 (80 vs 125 fuel)....

Armoured skirts on P4 only have 10 more armour than t34? That makes no sense either.

ETC.

I'll all for more diversity and roles between the different tanks, but I can't agree with you on the StugIIIG. I feel it has to remain cheap. Without a cheap StugIIIG, you will only have expensive tanks in T3.

Currently when you need extra armor ASAP but are below 100 fuel you can get a StugIIIG to support either your other tanks or infantry. I have been in many situations where I had to get a StugIIIG because I did not have the time to save up more fuel.

So you're just going to make the P4 and STUGIII have the same fuel cost?
That makes no sense historically, and even Relic acknowledged that the STUGIII cost was roughly 2/3 of P4 (80 vs 125 fuel)....

Armoured skirts on P4 only have 10 more armour than t34? That makes no sense either.

ETC.

The STUG III performance would be around the same of a PIV, altho with different pros and cons.

It's not about real world cost, but instead of these tanks performance in-game.

If the stug would perform as well as it did, and remained at 80 fuel, it would be grossly overpowered. Even with my suggestions, stugs would generally be preffered over panzer IVs ( and rightly so, wehrmacht did prefer some STUG instead of PIV)


Also, about the PIV. The vet 0 PIV is the G version. It had 50mm worth of armor at both the hull and the turret. The t-34/76 had 70mm on the turret and around 70~ worth of armor on the hull.

The PIV H. variant (which you get at vet 2, had hull armor of 80mm, and the turret still remained 50mm).

Making pz 4 even more worthless...and panther still 160 dmg dud gun with accuracy..no thanks.

Making pz 4 even more worthless...and panther still 160 dmg dud gun with accuracy..no thanks.

But in that list, i wrote that the panthers gun would match the PIVs gun in terms of anti infantry, hardly a dud to be honest with you.

And the PIV in my eyes would actually get a buff with it's increased penetration and better scaling.

But in that list, i wrote that the panthers gun would match the PIVs gun in terms of anti infantry, hardly a dud to be honest with you.

And the PIV in my eyes would actually get a buff with it's increased penetration and better scaling.

I don't build panther for anti infantry work...with its accuracy and shit DPs its worthless pricewise no matter how much armor u slap into it.

Whats the point in scaling if it would lose to t-34/76-a tank taht would still cost 15 fuel less.

Although i do add,ur change would nerf the is-2 very hard too.9 sec reload ..lol.

I don't build panther for anti infantry work...with its accuracy and shit DPs its worthless pricewise no matter how much armor u slap into it.

Whats the point in scaling if it would lose to t-34/76-a tank taht would still cost 15 fuel less.

Although i do add,ur change would nerf the is-2 very hard too.9 sec reload ..lol.

Hmm, well i believe that if it's anti infantry was to be matched to the PIVs gun, that would require to touch the "scatter" on the gun, which would automatically make it's accuracy the same as the PIVs. And the PIV would not lose to the the t-34/76. They would have around the same chance to penetrate each other at ALL ranges, with a very slight advantage going to the PIV in terms of penetration, however the increased sight range would allow the PIV to get the first shot off, which would swing the engagement in it's favor.

It would not be a nerf to the IS-2, it's reload will be increased by 1/3 and it's damage will be increased by 1/3. Not really a nerf at all.

It's part realistic and part unrealistic. The weak armour of the PIV seems to refer to the PIV F2 but once vetted it becomes a PIV G/H. I guess in a way I'm fine with it but it seems the battle between 2 companies become something that spans from 1941 to 1944.

Not sure why would you choose the Panzer IV over the StuG though othar than the turret. The Stug is like a vet Panzer IV right off the bat.

It's part realistic and part unrealistic. The weak armour of the PIV seems to refer to the PIV F2 but once vetted it becomes a PIV G/H. I guess in a way I'm fine with it but it seems the battle between 2 companies become something that spans from 1941 to 1944.

Well, see, if we give the PIV it's G/H armor, then theres no reason to give it that extra armor at vet 2.

At the moment the PIV vet 0 armor is something that would be for the G/H versions of the tank, however, at vet 2 it gets even better armor, which makes... No sense at all.

And the turret is important, a turret in my opinion is a HUGE advantage. STUG would probaly get a mobility nerf so theres more reason to build PIVs.

Hmm, well i believe that if it's anti infantry was to be matched to the PIVs gun, that would require to touch the "scatter" on the gun, which would automatically make it's accuracy the same as the PIVs. And the PIV would not lose to the the t-34/76. They would have around the same chance to penetrate each other at ALL ranges, with a very slight advantage going to the PIV in terms of penetration, however the increased sight range would allow the PIV to get the first shot off, which would swing the engagement in it's favor.

Then panther would be just upgraded pz4, then the ostheer won't have any tank that can tackle enemy heavy armor. U can't chase IS2, ISU with PAK... And Tiger is doctorinal.

Panther is tank hunter, very high muzzle velocity gun is to penetrate thick armor. Buff the accuracy and cut the reload speed, it need's more DPS against armor for its price. And all that buff to armor on other tanks will be huge nerf to panther if u give him just anti infantry.
Panther should have best accuracy in ostheer collection of tanks, because of long 75mm gun.
Better than in Tiger, stug, pz4...

TL DR: Panther needs to be better against tanks, not infantry.

Then panther would be just upgraded pz4, then the ostheer won't have any tank that can tackle enemy heavy armor. U can't chase IS2, ISU with PAK... And Tiger is doctorinal.

Panther is tank hunter, very high muzzle velocity gun is to penetrate thick armor. Buff the accuracy and cut the reload speed, it need's more DPS against armor for its price. And all that buff to armor on other tanks will be huge nerf to panther if u give him just anti infantry.
Panther should have best accuracy in ostheer collection of tanks, because of long 75mm gun.
Better than in Tiger, stug, pz4...

TL DR: Panther needs to be better against tanks, not infantry.

Not really, the allied mediums would still get penetrated pretty much 100% of the time by the panther. Since it has it's superb 240 penetration. Buffing it's anti infantry, would automatically buffs its accuracy againts tanks.

Not really, the allied mediums would still get penetrated pretty much 100% of the time by the panther. Since it has it's superb 240 penetration. Buffing it's anti infantry, would automatically buffs its accuracy againts tanks.

Yea, u will penetrate almost every time, if u hit them... And when u hit u will deal low damage, with very long reload. But why does Panther need to be better against infantry? U don't go in that black hole of ostheer tier 3 to get expensive tank who can't deal against armor or infantry in reliable way. U can get Tiger, very good anti infantry and good damage against tanks, hard to kill. Just spam grenadiers and paks until u hit 11CP, then u will have alot of fuel for tigers...
I mean, pz4 is not even that good against infantry, that would be a bad joke if panther gets it.
Just another reason to leave Panther this expensive IMHO.

Yea, u will penetrate almost every time, if u hit them... And when u hit u will deal low damage, with very long reload. But why does Panther need to be better against infantry? U don't go in that black hole of ostheer tier 3 to get expensive tank who can't deal against armor or infantry in reliable way. U can get Tiger, very good anti infantry and good damage against tanks, hard to kill. Just spam grenadiers and paks until u hit 11CP, then u will have alot of fuel for tigers...
I mean, pz4 is not even that good against infantry, that would be a bad joke if panther gets it.
Just another reason to leave Panther this expensive IMHO.

Well, the PIV main gun is more accurate againts infantry than the t-34, and has the same area of effect.

The tiger, panzer IV, t-34/85 , t-34/76, panther ALL do the same damage. The PIV is pretty accurate , it has 6.5 scatter, so panther having the same scatter will also make it pretty accurate againts tanks. It's not a very long reload, 6.5 seconds i believe, same as the t-34/85.

Call ins being dominant is another issue, which i am trying to adress by buffing the panther.

Well, the PIV main gun is more accurate againts infantry than the t-34, and has the same area of effect.

The tiger, panzer IV, t-34/85 , t-34/76, panther ALL do the same damage. The PIV is pretty accurate , it has 6.5 scatter, so panther having the same scatter will also make it pretty accurate againts tanks. It's not a very long reload, 6.5 seconds i believe, same as the t-34/85.

Call ins being dominant is another issue, which i am trying to adress by buffing the panther.

If you havent noticed some units simply shoot faster. the puma shoots so fast that it nearly has 50% more damage output then the panther . you can look up the dps differences between the units at coh 2 stats as their are more stats involved then just reload.