Cruzz's Fantasy Patch Thread 2: WTFWFA Edition

I won't mind giving conscripts a lategame upgrade option actually.1dps maybe.or 2 SVT.But it can't stack with ppsh.PPsh conscripts spam is highly underestimated..with oorah,molotovs and at nade its quite powerful due to the dirt cheap reinforce and mobility offered by oorah and blob munching ability of 2-3 molotovs.

Cons weapon upgrade has been a constant point of Sov whine since release of the game, and yet somehow Sov has managed very well without it for the games entire history.

If Cons get a weapons upgrade, then give Grens Merge and Oorah equivalence of some sort, and revisit the core 4/6man equation in this fundamental matchup.

Thats the necessary reciprocation in order to keep them aligned.

So, assuming that Cons get a weapon upgrade, lets shift the discussion to what Merge/Oorah ability form the reciprocating effect would be as implemented on Grens?

Perhaps return the native Mark Target ability? Atleast the code should still exist for that. Sprint shouldnt be hard to add as a native ability, since vocals and code for that are also already pre-existing.

Thats the necessary reciprocation in order to keep them aligned.

I don't think any kind of "reciprocation" is needed. Soviets are gonna get hit hardest by the call-in change I want, because they're the most reliant on the couple of cheese call-in tank strats they have. Wehr second hardest, but they actually have good tech vehicles in T3 so they've always had an option that isn't just waiting for Tigers. USF and OKW won't really care except for the EZ8 spam strat and even there the cost of a major is not as high as soviet tech and gives you some utility in the form of the retreat point.

The horrible conscript scalability into lategame has largely been "solved" by nobody using them in team games if they want to win, and nobody expecting to win without either really heavy support weapon (maxim, mortar, sniper) or tons of anti-infantry tanks. It's not like I'm suggesting to give them some kind of weapons of mass destruction here, even with these upgrades they couldn't win against an lmg gren squad at any range all other things being equal. But atleast they'd put up a better fight than right now where they're literally just cannonfodder for merging into other squads in the end game.

As I said.

If Cons are gonna get a weapon upgrade, it sort of automatically necessitates a reciprocation of native abilities to Grens.

Else, whats the point of Grens anymore. Just swap to play Sov and field Cons instead, for not only a good upgrade and lategame scaleability, but also a larger unit and two native abilities.

Makes no sense, man.

^^ but cons should never be equal to gren dps? t0 and six man size is their advantage, or, was? i think they could use better mid range accuracy and maybe a bit of a durability boost.

Cons weapon upgrade has been a constant point of Sov whine since release of the game, and yet somehow Sov has managed very well without it for the games entire history.

If Cons get a weapons upgrade, then give Grens Merge and Oorah equivalence of some sort, and revisit the core 4/6man equation in this fundamental matchup.

Thats the necessary reciprocation in order to keep them aligned.

So, assuming that Cons get a weapon upgrade, lets shift the discussion to what Merge/Oorah ability form the reciprocating effect would be as implemented on Grens?

Perhaps return the native Mark Target ability? Atleast the code should still exist for that. Sprint shouldnt be hard to add as a native ability, since vocals and code for that are also already pre-existing.

i really dont want to say this but you seem to have no idea on how infantry combat is. you seem to be harping on the 4/6man equation.

at early game, grens vs cons are roughly equal, which justifies the cost of both units to be equal at 240mp.

grens > cons at long
cons > grens at mid/close
grens > wounded cons at mid/close

however, it is until lmg42 that skews this golden equation and throws it out of the window. lmg42 adds a huge damage boost to grens at *ALL* ranges, which makes them roughly the damage output of 1.75 gren squad or 7 gren model. each lmg has the roughly same amount of dps a single vanilla gren squad has at long and midrange while roughly worth 2 gren models at close range. with lmg42, this 4/6men equation is no more and the advantage is overwhelming, it is now 7/6men equation.

naturally, there should be option for conscripts to scale to having the health of 14men to balance things out, but that would be absurd and fortunately not implemented.

however, that is not the fault of grens for this imbalance, but the very nature of ostheer, they do not have elite infantry to speak of, only infantry that takes on a different role. but soviets do, in guards and shocks to tip the scales.

but here's the problem to why soviets are always behind in infantry fights, lmg42s are far too cheap and far too strong. for a mere 60munitions, it converts a single gren model to do the dps of an entire fresh gren squad. to match, soviets must, go shocks which costs 440mp or guards dp28s which cost 330+75munitions or bring in tanks and support teams.

but then, the relative cost efficiency of grenadiers also mean that they can also pump out more grens, bring in support teams and tanks to even the odds against soviet tanks and support teams. not only that, they can also match the numbers and even outproduce the soviet players.

thus, at its current form the imbalance of grens vs the entire soviet infantry rooster comes after bp1 with lmg42s. there's just no way for soviets to match the dps with model count when lmg effectively doubles gren dps at long/mid range. therefore, the only other way to do it is to match them at dps, which means an upgun to soviet infantry, preferably non-doctrinal and available in all strategies, the conscripts.

there is no need for any reciprocation of whatsoever that you are talking about as long as the dps for conscript upgrade is within reasonable range and takes into account the 7/6men equation and factoring in soviet elite infantry i have described.

There really is no way around it.

If Cons get a native weapons upgrade, Grens really do need reciprocating native abilities to offset Merge and Oorah, as well as the 6man durability issue towards mid-lategame.

being able to merge into support weapons is actually a powerful ability, sure wish that even pios had it.

You want to know what is even stronger then merge?

Reinforcing from a halftruck that is on field early.

As usual you are nitpicking and completely ignoring axis strong points focusing on "weaker but stronger anyway" soviet version.

You want to know what is even stronger then merge?

Reinforcing from a halftruck that is on field early.

As usual you are nitpicking and completely ignoring axis strong points focusing on "weaker but stronger anyway" soviet version.

what happens when it gets blown the fuck up? late game its more usefull then early anyway. if its such a weak ability why would you care if pios got it?

what happens when it gets blown the fuck up? late game its more usefull then early anyway. if its such a weak ability why would you care if pios got it?

I'm not saying its weak, its pretty meh but can be useful. I'm also saying its not suited for other factions.
It also got plenty of drawbacks.
-You need to retreat one squad anyway
-Merging with shocks you're loosing armor
-Merging with guards you're loosing awesome coats
-Merging with weapon teams you're loosing menpower

And if you seriously can't see balance issue with this ability on wehr side, then let me point you at cost difference of pios/osttruppen reinforce and pgren reinforce costs.

Now do the same comparisons between conscripts and what they can reinforce.

See the blatant cost balance issue yet?

See the blatant cost balance issue yet?

Yes.
I see a blatant cost balance issue in Cons having Merge/Oorah native, 6man durability and a LMG upgrade.

As opposed to Grens having no native abilities, 4man durability and a more expensive LMG upgrade.

Yes.
I see a blatant cost balance issue in Cons having Merge/Oorah native, 6man durability and a LMG upgrade.

As opposed to Grens having no native abilities, 4man durability and a more expensive LMG upgrade.

Out of all the ideas for Conscript scaling, I think LMG cons are probably the worst idea. The meta is so LMG blobbish already, why add to that?

Anything else is fine but I do not want to see DP spam on conscripts... We already have US for that.

LMG spam is here to stay. Why should the Soviets not be allowed that? That is discrimination.

PPSH would be a good non-doctrinal upgrade for the unit.