Cruzz's Fantasy Patch Thread 2: WTFWFA Edition

bye bye entire 3rd page of thread. guys cmon atleast try to stay civil and on topic.

bye bye entire 3rd page of thread. guys cmon atleast try to stay civil and on topic.

Can we please lock this. I believe relevant points have been discussed its become a bit of a charade.

Agree with everything especially the conscript single DP28 upgrade. Been hoping for something other than maxim spam in every game.

Since this is a Fantasy Patch Thread here is my input on what I would like changed.

General Changes
The option to disable replays added to the options Menu
Performance and Optimization Fixs
Crossfire/SLI support added
Pathing improvements made
You can now assign a different set of Bulletins for each commander (currently you have 3 Bulletins for all three commanders, I would like the ability to have 3 bulletins for each seperate commander)


Feedback on Proposed Changes
Call in System
The game would be easier to balance if Call In Abilities were tied down to Tier Upgrades/Requiring Buildings to be made. The problem I have with this is that it restricts choices which takes away from Strategic Deph. I would rather see tweaks made so that you could have a choice between Teching up or waiting and saving CP's and using them for call in abilities. The issue at hand is that Call In abilities are too effective making teching a waste of fuel if you want to optimize your fuel usage.

Possible Solutions
1. Variable Pricing - I will show an example using Soviets. Say for example calling in a T34/85 had a cost of 600 Manpower and 200 fuel. If you made Soviet T3 or Soviet T4 the call in cost would drop down to 400 manpower 150 fuel (Just random numbers im tossing out here) Here is another example. The Soviet 120 Mortar costs around 400 manpower and allows you to skip T2 avoiding the tech cost. Now if you had built Tier 2, then you could essentially reduce the price of the 120 Mortar to 300 Manpower. Now lets look at Germans. Assault Grenadiers are 280 Manpower if I am not mistaken. You could essentially skip German Tier 1 and go straight into Tier 2 by just spamming Assault Grenadiers. Now what if they had a cost of 350 Manpower and then after building Tier 1 the price went down to 280 manpower. Now keep in mind these are random numbers I took off the top of my head. The idea here is to allow the player to have two choices.
Choice 1 - Skip Tech, pay more for Initial Cost
Choice 2 - Tech Up, Gain more Efficient Call In Abilities

The Current Game only gives you one Choice which is "Spam Units, Skip tech, Spam Call In units" Which is why call in units are too effective and teching up is a waste of fuel if you can avoid it.

2. Variable Cooldowns - Similar to the Idea above, basically the cooldowns of call in abilities are adjusted based on wether or not you teched up. For example, 5-10 Minute Cooldown to Call im Units without teching up. With Tech, normal Cooldowns.

Feedback on USF

Agree with your changes for the most part. The only thing I disagree with is giving M8 Howitzer Carriages a direct fire mode as it would change the role of the unit. I would rather see the unit improved in its ability to provide indirect fire support for your army since currently the USF is lacking in non doctrinal artillery options. Soviets have Katsuya, OKW has Stuka, Whermact/Ostheer have the Panzerwerfer.

Feedback on Soviets

Maxim - Not sure how I feel about these changes. Keep in mind that they are a 6 man squad still and making them more expensive they would probably still get spammed.

Penal Battalion - Personally this is a bit radical but I would like to see Penal Battalions become doctrinal and in its place either put Shock Troops or Guards. As a Doctrinal Unit, I would like to see some improvements made. Ability to fire on the move with a Flamethrower, Some additional survivablity. Reason being is that T1 is the least made Tier Building for Soviets. If you go Tier 2 then tier 3/4 there is no reason to go back and pick up Tier 1. Most commanders have the ability to call in Guards or Shock Troops so grabbing T1 to make Penals is not exactly efficient.

Swap Su76 and T70

Feedback on Ostheer

I like your proposed changes.
Things I would add.
Pak43 - Some additional Range, current range is too short


Feedback for OKW

MG34 - Max cost should be 240. 270 is a bit too high

Possible Solutions
1. Variable Pricing - I will show an example using Soviets. Say for example calling in a T34/85 had a cost of 600 Manpower and 200 fuel. If you made Soviet T3 or Soviet T4 the call in cost would drop down to 400 manpower 150 fuel (Just random numbers im tossing out here) Here is another example. The Soviet 120 Mortar costs around 400 manpower and allows you to skip T2 avoiding the tech cost. Now if you had built Tier 2, then you could essentially reduce the price of the 120 Mortar to 300 Manpower. Now lets look at Germans. Assault Grenadiers are 280 Manpower if I am not mistaken. You could essentially skip German Tier 1 and go straight into Tier 2 by just spamming Assault Grenadiers. Now what if they had a cost of 350 Manpower and then after building Tier 1 the price went down to 280 manpower. Now keep in mind these are random numbers I took off the top of my head. The idea here is to allow the player to have two choices.
Choice 1 - Skip Tech, pay more for Initial Cost
Choice 2 - Tech Up, Gain more Efficient Call In Abilities

Really excellent idea here. +1 big time.

Unfortunately this thread clearly does not cover the key areas of imbalance.

I.e. Rifle spam, US aa truck, No counter to sov sniper, US Jeep, Maxim spam

Then the UP issues, OH T4, OKW AA truck, Volks being trashy before vet which puts them at a huge disadvantage early game. LEIG being too heavily nerfed... and of course PGs..

Thank you Wifidi. Well covered, sir!

Really excellent idea here. +1 big time.

I dont see how making T34/85 callin cheaper than it is now, after tier expense, would be a good thing.

It just makes tier units even less cost efficient than they are now, in comparison.
Same applies by that logic to all factions, tiers and callins.

Just makes the current tier unit vs callin cost inefficiency even more pronounced, than it already is.
In other words, makes the problem worse.

Also, it doesnt work for Ost in particular, which has a forced Battlephase upgrade cost, and leaves them extremely vulnerable between T1 or T2---T4 where you have to pay roughly half the difference anyways, with no actual benefit for skipping T3 (where the core armor resides).

Just doesnt work, man.

Would be abslutely stellar for Sov as a buff, but for every other faction it would be an enornous nerf.
You need to consider the fairness and position of other factions too, not just "what I want for my faction".

Possible Solutions
1. Variable Pricing - I will show an example using Soviets. Say for example calling in a T34/85 had a cost of 600 Manpower and 200 fuel. If you made Soviet T3 or Soviet T4 the call in cost would drop down to 400 manpower 150 fuel (Just random numbers im tossing out here) Here is another example. The Soviet 120 Mortar costs around 400 manpower and allows you to skip T2 avoiding the tech cost. Now if you had built Tier 2, then you could essentially reduce the price of the 120 Mortar to 300 Manpower. Now lets look at Germans. Assault Grenadiers are 280 Manpower if I am not mistaken. You could essentially skip German Tier 1 and go straight into Tier 2 by just spamming Assault Grenadiers. Now what if they had a cost of 350 Manpower and then after building Tier 1 the price went down to 280 manpower. Now keep in mind these are random numbers I took off the top of my head. The idea here is to allow the player to have two choices.
Choice 1 - Skip Tech, pay more for Initial Cost
Choice 2 - Tech Up, Gain more Efficient Call In Abilities

The Current Game only gives you one Choice which is "Spam Units, Skip tech, Spam Call In units" Which is why call in units are too effective and teching up is a waste of fuel if you can avoid it.

2. Variable Cooldowns - Similar to the Idea above, basically the cooldowns of call in abilities are adjusted based on wether or not you teched up. For example, 5-10 Minute Cooldown to Call im Units without teching up. With Tech, normal Cooldowns.

Something like that would be nice.

Greetings all,

This might not be the best thread to ask, but here it goes. The other day, I gazed upon a post which requested the stats of the Wehrmacht's Puma to be (buffed up and) equal to the OKW's Puma.

My question is, apart from the vet 5, what exactly are the differences (stat-wise) between these units?

I've heard that OKW's Puma may be a little more effective against infantry, but it's kind of hard to imagine if that was the case -- considering they are the same vehicle and all.

I do think the original design (back in the vCOH2 alpha) of call ins being in a building was better - the only problem was they replaced the original units.

Input on the fantasy patch
These are just the things I don't agree with Cruzz's suggestion

USF:
Rear Echelon:
A better way to improve them is buff the suppressive fire to the point where a squad out of cover has a 100% chance of getting suppressed. It seems like a waste of muni to use it at the moment.

Shorten grenade throw animation:
Can't really say if shortening it makes it better. This change would indirectly weaken the molotov compared to the rest of the nades.

Add M7 light at mines to base construction selection of rear echelons:
The light AT mines are dirt cheap, attaching it to the minesweeper upgrade would prevent it from being abused early in the game.

Add toggle to M8 Howitzer Carriage to make it only fire direct shots instead of high trajectory ones:
I don't even understand how this would help with the M8.

Reduce Major artillery time to arrive by 2 seconds:
Might be better to give the major a large range to call in artillery. Fast artillary drop is never a good idea in my eyes.

Bazooka:
They just need a penetration buff. The damage buff seems a bit too much since all USF forces can equip them.

M1919 LMG:
The LMG as a whole needs a tweek not just this one. Tweeking how LMGs work would directly affect how usefull this is.

Increase maxim cost to 280mp. Increase aoe suppression value to 0.8:
Not too sure about this one. This might just induce people to spam the maxim more, although it will take longer to do.

Sniper vet1 sprint increased in cost to 25 (from 10)
10 muni seems fine to me although a 15 muni cost is still attractable. 25 is just downright expensive.

SU-76:
How would the indirect fire work? Does it perform like its barrage, because if thats the case then your basically changing how this unit performs.

T70:
Its actually pretty good as it is. 5 fuel decrease seems like a better change.

ISU152:
I don't know about 1 sec setup time. Adding the 1 sec setup time would just make it too vulnerable.

Soviet combined army/Soviet industry:
Generally I say no to changing the ability of any previously released commander


Ostheer:
Ostheer Panther stats changed to mimic those of OKW Panther (increased accuracy etc):
No. Ostheer doesn't have the handicap of getting less fuel unlike the OKW.

Brumbar:
A 10% start would be more ideal so devs can weigh in if it needs more or less scatter.

Increase Scout car armor to 11/5 (from 9/4.5):
Don't really know the penetration of infanry rifles so if they can still penetrate then yes, otherwise no. It is a car after all.

Osttruppen:
Not too sure about reducing the price more. It's already the cheapest "backbone" infantry that can be fielded.

German sniper:
A better way to fix the sniper is to give it incendiary rounds at vet0 with a 60-90 muni cost(125-200% cost than vet 1) This allows the Ostheer player the possibility to counter snipe against SU snipers but at a premium cost. The also still retain their original roles.

German infantry doctrine:
Generally I say no to changing the ability of any previously released commander


OKW:
MG34:
240 MP would be a good start

flak ht:
move no setup to vet 5

Kubelwagen:
Its already a great support weapon. Its speed and almost 0 "setup" time makes it an ideal unit to ambush enemy infantry.

Obersoldaten LMG34:
decrease damage of both LMGs to 4 or 4.5.


General:
Demolition charges detected by a minesweeper can be attacked and destroyed with small arms.
For a 90 muni cost being detectable with minesweeper just makes it impractical to use.

Remove heavy engine crit chances from all basic infantry at abilities:
No. chances are already low, so why not have that tiny chance of something awesome out of the infantry.

Reinstate plane direction controls from vcoh for plane-based offmap abilities:
Certain commanders would need to be changed then(Land lease). Its also a hassle for a lot of people especially in the middle of a fight.

Fire only on vehicles toggle for all vehicles and atgun crews.
Only TD's and AT guns need this.

Just my opinion on the matter.

I dont see how making T34/85 callin cheaper than it is now, after tier expense, would be a good thing.

I'm interested in the base idea of tieing call-ins to teching and finding a way to reward players who build their tiers. Naturally there would be balancing to be done and I think the T34/85 is kind of its own separate issue.