German T4

You never really used brummbar, right? It squad wipes decently, can fight generalist stock tanks well and can effortlessly drive up and decrew AT guns.

How many times have you used Brummbar in the last 7 days? The last month? The last 6 months?

How many times have you used Brummbar in the last 7 days? The last month? The last 6 months?

Last week counts?

Do you know what attack ground is?

You most likely never used it at all and yet complain about it, why?

You shouldn't talk about things you don't know.

You didnt answer the questions, dude.

They are not rhetorical.

You undermined that guy by claiming he hasnt used Brummbar.
You also then continue to claim that I also "most likely not used them".

Well, the obvious consideration then is how about you then?

They are simple questions, and fair.

You made your point against him on the basis he hasnt used it.
Well the, how much have you used it in the period I asked?

You most likely never used it at all and yet complain about it, why?

You shouldn't talk about things you don't know.

Making unfounded assumptions benefits the discussion in no way whatsoever. Brummbar does everything somewhat well, but not well enough to make up for the cost and tech... especially since the StuG E does all it can do for less than half the price not even including teching and building cost, while also having something like a third of the reload time.

Making unfounded assumptions benefits the discussion in no way whatsoever. Brummbar does everything somewhat well, but not well enough to make up for the cost and tech... especially since the StuG E does all it can do for less than half the price not even including teching and building cost, while also having something like a third of the reload time.

Indeed. Madness to sacrifice so much fuel. But i believe you are beating a dead horse arguing with the likes of Katitof and Vetlol cake. .

The problem with the Panther is that it can´t chase medium tanks effectively. It can´t use its 50 range on the chase (as it can´t see the target) and the targeted medium tank can fire back (or you risk it getting away). Once the Panther gets caught while chasing that medium tank, it takes way too much damage and goes down easily.

Added to that the dps of the Panther is lower than that of a Panzer IV (rate of fire), which more than makes up for the higher penetration on the Panther.

German T4 > Soviet T4

in team games on open maps, roaming Panthers groups are very hard to deal with, and than you have brummar/werfer to clear AT guns

Who the hell builds tech anyway?

Call-ins 4 life yo.

Sadly, this thread has been turning out badly. No good will come of it without invising. I'm leaving the thread more or less intact for the time being,in the hope that a more studied discussion may yet emerge.

Making unfounded assumptions benefits the discussion in no way whatsoever. Brummbar does everything somewhat well, but not well enough to make up for the cost and tech... especially since the StuG E does all it can do for less than half the price not even including teching and building cost, while also having something like a third of the reload time.

I don't consider brummbar to be overpriced, pretty much every time I got it recently it wrecked havoc.
Getting to T4 is the hard part, but brummbar cost and performance is exactly where it should be, it packs a punch, it takes it and can even fight med tanks so its in pretty good spot for its cost. Only issue is getting to T4.

I don't consider brummbar to be overpriced, pretty much every time I got it recently it wrecked havoc.
Getting to T4 is the hard part, but brummbar cost and performance is exactly where it should be, it packs a punch, it takes it and can even fight med tanks so its in pretty good spot for its cost. Only issue is getting to T4.

What do you sacrifice to the RNG gods? The StuPa hasn't worked very well for me lately that even my Panzerwerfer's MG42 works better.

What do you sacrifice to the RNG gods? The StuPa hasn't worked very well for me lately that even my Panzerwerfer's MG42 works better.

Nothing.

As per my own personal general rule enforced by fate-I tend to do well with armies/classes/weapons ect I do not like too much.

That curse follows me from game to game...

The Ostheer Panther sucks because it actually is WORSE than the OKW Panther. For whatever reason OKW get a buffed Panther for the same price.

I think Ostheer Panther would be fine if it would simply be standardized with the OKW version.

Other than that, T4 needs to be cheaper so it's actually possible to get access to the Panther within a reasonable timeframe.

Differences between OKW Panther and Ostheer version (according to Cruzz in another thread):

30% smaller scatter penalty on the move (1.7 vs 2 multiplication)
30% smaller accuracy penalty on the move (0.65 vs 0.5 multiplication)
up to 40% higher accuracy when standing still (0.035 vs 0.025 far)
25% higher dps on hull MG (8.1 vs 6.4)

Regarding Brumbear: either you use ground fire or you will be most of the time hitting the guy who is far away from the group dealing only 1 model kill.

While it´s not AWESOME, its an acceptable unit. Problem is, having enough fuel to get anything else.

Panther issue is not just accuracy,but DPS for its insane price and teching.Its range is useless except in defense and then too misses half the time.Overkill penetration.Overall utterly underwhelming unit.

As for brummbar..ostwind is far cheaper and with turret.Panzer 4s will get u AT and good AI.U can get 2 pz 4s instead of getting a brummbar.
Brummbar can only be thought of if u have somehow decided to go t4,actually have the fuel and are being bullied by a blob.Though guards with instantly button it and go to its rear and then conscript oorah and at nade.So more specifically usa blob.Its good vs maxim spam though,can take more punishment than ost from zis and kills it faster..but can't flank them like ostwind.

I think the only thing you would get T4 is for the panzerwerfers to counter a heavily defended area, which like other rocket artillery depends on your luck now that they all have a 2 minute recharge time, but I do agree that the Panther is underperforming for it's price now. Armor maybe that's ok, the damage is like any other medium tank damage but the accuracy of it is abysmal.

I don't think there is a difference between firing while moving or firing while standing anymore the tank just misses even the tank is stationary. Since this tank is only good against armor this is unacceptable. Since it's anti infantry capability sucks because it takes forever to just kill an AT gun so you spent 4 minutes running back and forth on an AT gun while a Tiger or IS2 can just walk afront of the AT gun and blow it to pieces in minutes.

The Brummbar accuracy is even worse, I tried using this but it just misses too frequently. If people were complaining about the IS2 missing too often the Brummbar seems to be worse. I remember using the brummbar against a blob and the thing missed every shot, a round even flew over the heads and landed on Alaska. I think the MG killed more than the gun itself. Since this weapon is only good against infantry it should perform well against infantry and support weapons but it under performs in this compared to the IS2 and the Tiger, which can take on tanks, and bounce off a couple of AT gun shots while the brummbar rarely deflect AT shots.

Relic should fix the accuracy of both Panther and Brummbars and decrease the cost of battle phase from 60 to 50 fuel.

I think the only thing you would get T4 is for the panzerwerfers to counter a heavily defended area, which like other rocket artillery depends on your luck now that they all have a 2 minute recharge time, but I do agree that the Panther is underperforming for it's price now. Armor maybe that's ok, the damage is like any other medium tank damage but the accuracy of it is abysmal.

I don't think there is a difference between firing while moving or firing while standing anymore the tank just misses even the tank is stationary. Since this tank is only good against armor this is unacceptable. Since it's anti infantry capability sucks because it takes forever to just kill an AT gun so you spent 4 minutes running back and forth on an AT gun while a Tiger or IS2 can just walk afront of the AT gun and blow it to pieces in minutes.

The Brummbar accuracy is even worse, I tried using this but it just misses too frequently. If people were complaining about the IS2 missing too often the Brummbar seems to be worse. I remember using the brummbar against a blob and the thing missed every shot, a round even flew over the heads and landed on Alaska. I think the MG killed more than the gun itself. Since this weapon is only good against infantry it should perform well against infantry and support weapons but it under performs in this compared to the IS2 and the Tiger, which can take on tanks, and bounce off a couple of AT gun shots while the brummbar rarely deflect AT shots.

Relic should fix the accuracy of both Panther and Brummbars and decrease the cost of battle phase from 60 to 50 fuel.

Im afriad even if they decreased it by 10 fuel it will make little difference. Panther and Brums needs your above performance increase as well as a fuel decrease to make it more enticing to use than the tiger.