Panther Rework Idea

In my opinion, the OKW Panther is almost completely fine, maybe could use a small buff but really nothing major.

The Ostheer Panther is a more tricky situation. The unit itself is perfectly fine in relation to its cost, but when you factor in the cost of teching and the prominence of the Tiger amongst Ostheer doctrines, the Panther becomes a bit of an unattractive option. Basically, it doesn't really have a niche to fill in the Ostheer faction. We all seem to agree that its job should be "late game tank hunter," so it seems to me that either the Panther needs to get better at this, or the Tiger needs to be a less attractive option.

If they wanted to look at the Panther, maybe the could add some sort of ability to emphasize its anti-tank role like the OKW command tank's "mark vehicle" or the Pak's "target weak point." If they wanted to change the Tiger, I think it would have to be something like a cost/CP increase, since nerfing the Tiger directly would just make it overlap even more with the Panther.

We all seem to agree that its job should be "late game tank hunter," so it seems to me that either the Panther needs to get better at this, or the Tiger needs to be a less attractive option.

No way, Tiger was nerfed allready and didn't realy need that nerf especially when IS-2 got buffed. Another Relic over-reaction trying to balance the IS2 and Tiger. So forget about Tiger. The only way is to do something about the Panther.

In bullet points (sort of TL;DR),
the ideal Panther (at the current 175 FU price tag) is:
-Comparable offensive stats to the Jackson, but keep the range at 50 to keep it from being a mini Elefant, maybe even 45 or 40 if it becomes an issue, so it's not so much of a sniper tank as it is a flanker/hunter, but I think that 50 range is pretty good for it
-Armor and HP equal to or around that of the Panzer IV, we don't want this to be a particularly tough tank
-Keep speed, acceleration and cost values the same

Actually your suggestion would greatly nerf the Panther. It already has similar offensive power to the Jackson, but it has far better armor/hp than the PIV. So all that would do is make it easier to kill and decrease realism.

Actually your suggestion would greatly nerf the Panther. It already has similar offensive power to the Jackson, but it has far better armor/hp than the PIV. So all that would do is make it easier to kill and decrease realism.

Exactly, the Panther was a tank known for it's very good front armor, and long range high velocity penetrating cannon (and well, it's numerous mechanical failures over the course of WW2).

I agree with Kallipolan about the fact that Oberkommando Panther is almost fine. Wehrmacht's one is a bad choice if you tech for it (worse stats, higher costs if you take tiering into account, overshadowed by the Tiger).

Although i don't think Panther should be buffed by nerfing Tiger's attractiveness, rather bringing the tank to it's designed role by straight buff (Wehr version mirroring Ober version -and it would even bring consistency as the two tanks cost the same, and look the same, thus are the same version-), and decrease the cost of the Tier 4 (would also solve some of the Panzerwerfer and Brummbär issues). To what extent, i don't know, let's just hope Relic doesn't overbuff for once.

Panther has the potential to be a great tank, and people should feel the need to build some because it is great, not because it is the sole available option (if Tiger isn't available anymore).

I don't even get how the oberkommando version was designed with differents stats than the original one, having only advantages over the wehrmacht version. The cost (while still being high for the fuel starved faction) reflects it's performances quite accurately, and it is located in a desirable tier. They should stick to that working formula if/when they rework the Ost one (and well, adressing other Tier4 issues at the same time, but having a reliable Tier 4 tank hunter would probably push players to tech, and even better, rely less on Tiger doctrines).

the panther is perfectly fine the last thing that needs done is a buff. I will try to find the replay but I chased a panther 1 time with an easy 8 the panther went in reverse towards my base so I chased it head on front armor vs front armor. I wouldn't normally wouldn't do this but the panther was literally 1 hit from death and reversing towards my base. my easy 8 shot 5 times and all 5 shots bounced the front of it the panther shot 3 times and about killed my easy 8 at full hp luckily the 6th shot made it abandon pretty much at my base lol but I think the panther is just fine used right when it about wrecked an easy 8 full hp and it with almost no hp. lucky rng maybe. If anything its speed needs nerfed. It is pretty pathetic that a sherman is slower than a panther it makes no sense it is almost twice the size of a sherman.

If anything its speed needs nerfed. It is pretty pathetic that a sherman is slower than a panther it makes no sense it is almost twice the size of a sherman.

The Panthers engine had 600/700 hp, the Shermans engine had 350 hp. It makes perfect sense.

The Panthers engine had 600/700 hp, the Shermans engine had 350 hp. It makes perfect sense.

Good thing that sherman and panther had exactly the same weight so your comparison makes the most perfect of senses.

the panther is perfectly fine the last thing that needs done is a buff. I will try to find the replay but I chased a panther 1 time with an easy 8 the panther went in reverse towards my base so I chased it head on front armor vs front armor. I wouldn't normally wouldn't do this but the panther was literally 1 hit from death and reversing towards my base. my easy 8 shot 5 times and all 5 shots bounced the front of it the panther shot 3 times and about killed my easy 8 at full hp luckily the 6th shot made it abandon pretty much at my base lol but I think the panther is just fine used right when it about wrecked an easy 8 full hp and it with almost no hp. lucky rng maybe. If anything its speed needs nerfed. It is pretty pathetic that a sherman is slower than a panther it makes no sense it is almost twice the size of a sherman.

Not worth arguing. You don't provide anything, rather than pure rage for a unit described as underpowered by 80% of the community. You don't even mention if it was the oberkommando or wehrmacht version. Ignored for anger management sake.

Wikipedia's informations on tanks speeds:
Panther: 55 km/h (34 mph) (first models), 46 km/h (29 mph) (later models)
Sherman M4: 25 to 30 mph (40 to 48 km/h)

Definitely nonsense.

The Panthers engine had 600/700 hp, the Shermans engine had 350 hp. It makes perfect sense.

lol yeah but you are not comparing the weight. Also you are just incorrect sir. The panther did have a 700 hp engine and the sherman had a 470 hp engine. Due to the wieght differences which you did not take into account they were about the same speed check wikipedia. Right now the panther is way faster than the sherman not the same speed.

Not worth arguing. You don't provide anything, rather than pure rage for a unit described as underpowered by 80% of the community. You don't even mention if it was the oberkommando or wehrmacht version. Ignored for anger management sake.

Wikipedia's informations on tanks speeds:
Panther: 55 km/h (34 mph) (first models), 46 km/h (29 mph) (later models)
Sherman M4: 25 to 30 mph (40 to 48 km/h)

Definitely nonsense.

I am not raging I simply believe it is fine. Maybe 80% of the community that plays axis. It has really really great front armor it does great damage and it is hard to flank with shermans if the guy has a brain and uses the reverse. You have p4 tanks which is very close to the equal of a sherman. Why should the panther cost less and be out the same time as 1 sherman. Do the axis really need better armor than they already have?

Also as you can see I play mostly allies and I use a lot of shermans. What I hate going up against the most is not a Tiger of any form they are easily flanked and easily beatable what I have the most trouble with is a well driven panther just saying that is why I think it is fine. I think it is crazy when axis players make a bunch of tigers there like a fat kid with a sign on there back that says kick me most of the time unless there in a map like ettlebrook or something where it is very hard to flank tigers. Especially multiple panthers imo are very effective.

Panther underperforms against medium tanks. It's fine vs heavy tanks (or high class medium tanks), yet against really cheap tanks it's gun is so much overkill that it is actually far less effective per cost then the PIV. The second problem of the Panther is that call-ins are not tied to any tech, meaning that while the Panther is really good against those the high teching cost negates it to a degree. It basically makes the role that the Panther fills harder to achieve.

Panther underperforms against medium tanks. It's fine vs heavy tanks (or high class medium tanks), yet against really cheap tanks it's gun is so much overkill that it is actually far less effective per cost then the PIV.

lolwut

"my heavily-armored tank hunter is doing too well against medium tanks, buff plz"

I am not raging I simply believe it is fine. Maybe 80% of the community that plays axis. It has really really great front armor it does great damage and it is hard to flank with shermans if the guy has a brain and uses the reverse. You have p4 tanks which is very close to the equal of a sherman. Why should the panther cost less and be out the same time as 1 sherman. Do the axis really need better armor than they already have?

Also as you can see I play mostly allies and I use a lot of shermans. What I hate going up against the most is not a Tiger of any form they are easily flanked and easily beatable what I have the most trouble with is a well driven panther just saying that is why I think it is fine. I think it is crazy when axis players make a bunch of tigers there like a fat kid with a sign on there back that says kick me most of the time unless there in a map like ettlebrook or something where it is very hard to flank tigers. Especially multiple panthers imo are very effective.

What i mean, is that you probably fought an oberkommando Panther (which you still don't mention), while the people that wish a Panther rework are Wehrmacht players (and i guess you don't fight many of those, or you wouldn't complain they are somewhat OP).

Panther underperforms against medium tanks. It's fine vs heavy tanks (or high class medium tanks), yet against really cheap tanks it's gun is so much overkill that it is actually far less effective per cost then the PIV. The second problem of the Panther is that call-ins are not tied to any tech, meaning that while the Panther is really good against those the high teching cost negates it to a degree. It basically makes the role that the Panther fills harder to achieve.

This, there are not enough situations where going panther is preferable to going pIV or tiger, I already said once to buff the AI at shorter ranges as it is now when you get a panther you know you're going to have something that isn't useful against infantry, medium tanks penetrate each others armor well enough already with a similiar damage, there's no need for the panther's great penetration, the only situation I think a panther is needed is against IS-2 or if you already have a lot of anti infantry.

lolwut

"my heavily-armored tank hunter is doing too well against medium tanks, buff plz"

Not at all . technically the panthers high penetration is only useful against the is 2 but it has low rof beside that. the tiger has enough penetration to reliably penetrate the armor of the e8 and 85 and but also a much higher rof making it superior against the e8 or 85. that said the puma is also superior for the exact same reasons.

Not at all . technically the panthers high penetration is only useful against the is 2 but it has low rof beside that. the tiger has enough penetration to reliably penetrate the armor of the e8 and 85 and but also a much higher rof making it superior against the e8 or 85. that said the puma is also superior for the exact same reasons.

Not really it can preform way better against medium tanks than a tiger. Two easy 8s I park one in tigers ass which is easily done cause its slow while the other one circles it and lol. Smart panther starts backing up I prolly wont pen the front and probably end up losing both easy 8s and not killing the panther because I cannot get behind it (as it is faster backing up than the sherman is driving forwards) and eventually if I pursue it I am going to run into trouble and prolly lose both tanks while the panther survives. On a side not can anyone wikipedia me the reverse speed of a panther compared to a sherman driving forwards? I assume the panther dosen't go top speed in reverse due to a transmission but I may be wrong.

Good thing that sherman and panther had exactly the same weight so your comparison makes the most perfect of senses.

I actually thought about adding the comment that the horsepower difference is so huge, that even the higher weight of the Panther didn´t prevent it from going faster. I didn´t do it because I though it was obvious and nobody was so dumb to not recognize himself. I was wrong. The Panther has a speed of 46 km/h the Sherman a speed of 40 km/h. It´s not like the Panther was super slow, like people here seem to suggest.

And Katitof, until now I tried to talk with you like a normal person. The result is always a sarcastic answer. That makes you incredibly annoying.

Not really it can preform way better against medium tanks than a tiger. Two easy 8s I park one in tigers ass which is easily done cause its slow while the other one circles it and lol. Smart panther starts backing up I prolly wont pen the front and probably end up losing both easy 8s and not killing the panther because I cannot get behind it (as it is faster backing up than the sherman is driving forwards) and eventually if I pursue it I am going to run into trouble and prolly lose both tanks while the panther survives. On a side not can anyone wikipedia me the reverse speed of a panther compared to a sherman driving forwards? I assume the panther dosen't go top speed in reverse due to a transmission but I may be wrong.

I simply going to assume the axis player has made the arrangements to prevent this like posting grenadiers nearby. 1vs1 situations are rare i rather not involve them into balance. once i destroyed an is 2 with an okw puma but such situations are rare.

How i would like to see the panther.

Anti infantry made like the OLD PIV before it got the scatter buff.

Price cost to 155 fuel.

Why do you want the heaviest 'medium' tank of the war to be a glass cannon?

It's exactly what it says on the tin. Thick front, no rear, long range.

It's already a strong tank if you don't confuse it with an IS-2 and use it like a mong (aka 90% of panthers used in game).

Wehr needs to have same stats as OKW and it's fine.