Allied Medium Tanks Overperforming/too spammable?

Ram is pretty useless at the moment. And the Pz4 has a lot of anti - infantry capabilities so all in all the Pz 4 is superior to both T 34 76 and T 34 85.

Nope.

As an intermix of unit stats such as armor, hp, speed related stats, AT, AI, Ram and cost, all three of these units score about the same in overall equivalence.

Each of these units has a reciprocal strength and weakness in different areas of the values listed above, but leading to a sum total value, overall, of equivalence.

Thats what asymmetric balance is all about.

I meant both, infact.

Because you have forgotten to include AI efficacy and cost into the equation, which also carry their own value.
(Also, Ram.)

Thats what balance is. A complex equation of a wide variety of values.

Nope, I didn't forgot about that.

Ram is a non factor anymore, all it is good for is last desperate attempt to do something more when your tanks is pretty much dead and after P4 buff the AI difference isn't that great as well, P4 is quite on pair here while having the benefit of pintle. We could add blitz and tank smoke, but that only takes it to the level of T34/85 given all the utility, but rabid fanboys would tear me apart for saying that so I'll just finish here.

But believe me, I take much more into consideration when I'm discussing a unit then its raw stats and raw stats of unit against it as it is never 1v1 vacuum battle.

Nope.

As an intermix of unit stats such as armor, hp, speed related stats, AT, AI, Ram and cost, all three of these units score about the same in overall equivalence.

Each of these units has a reciprocal strength and weakness in different areas of the values listed above, but leading to a sum total value, overall, of equivalence.

Thats what asymmetric balance is all about.

Nah I still can't agree with you. I played many many games and I must have another perception of the performance of the P4 than you have... As I said, you can't go 1 vs 1 with a T 34 against a P4, in 80% you will loose that... infantry or other support not even mentioned. So the price is justified because you have the opportunity to 1 on 1 every Sovjet T 34. Of course it's another situation when there are more of them on the field but you just can't say T 34 = Pz4 that is and has never been the case. What YOU forgot to mention is Blitzkrieg and Tank smoke. Tank smoke hard counters the pin ability of the Guards. Which makes them just an average Anti - Infantry unit while the tank can lolstomp and escape after. Where is the russian counterpart to hard counter these shrecks? Oh there is none.
And I don't see any justice in assymetrical balance making one faction inferior in Medium 1 on 1 tank fights with nearly same costs.
I wouldn't care if Ram is put on P4. Because the average Ostheer player never comes into a situation when ram could be useful against him nor when he must ram.

You know that blitz was buffed back to give speed as well as acceleration?

Also, if you're willing to throw your 125fu tank away for crew shock or at best engine damage, well, go for it I guess.

When was last time you've seen ram used?

I'd switch it in an instant for blitz or tank smoke.

So FrikadelleXXL amd Katitof.

If I make a proposal thread to put Ram on PIV, am I correct in understanding both of you will vocally support it?

Katitof: "Ram is a non factor anymore"

FrikadelleXXL: "I wouldn't care if Ram is put on P4"

And a single panther can kite an IS-2 from here to Verdun. Panther is faster and our ranges the IS-2. Troll it all day erry day.

You're really really not playing both units to their strengths in that example. Panthers excel by making use of their long range and superior mobility to stay at ranges where other tanks cannot reliably penetrate- or even fire back at all.

IS-2's excel by keeping other tanks close where it's not going to miss and can make use of a large HP pool and even thicker frontal armour to out-slug more mobile tanks that could otherwise simply rotate out for repairs and tie it up forever.

The Panther is actually a surprisingly terrible kiting unit against other heavy tanks. Far accuracy is pretty bad from maximum range. From my experience, the IS2 will more or less match the Panther's max range. From the front, kiting an IS2 is more or less useless.

The frontal Armour of the IS2 is almost twice the pen value of the Panther's main gun. From the front, you'll penetrate roughly once in every two shots. What that means is, you'll statistically be able to pen from the front every 18 seconds (Assuming the round actually hits). Whereas you need something like 6 shots from a Panther to kill an IS2(18 * 6 = 108 or just under 2 minutes, completely ignoring the (actually quite large) chance of a miss), the IS2 only needs 3 shots on the Panther from the front, whereas it has a 75%-ish chance of penetrating.

All in all, Panthers are terrible against IS2s. Hell, King-Tigers are actually fairly bad vs IS2s, let alone Panthers. And yeah, they're massively overpriced for what they do. Essentially just a glorified T34/85 without any of the AI-capabilities.

As I've said, I wouldn't mind if if you'll give T34 blitz or tank smoke.

You wouldn't want to ram T34s and you wouldn't do anything to IS-2 or KV-1.

Ram can't do anything more then engine damage anyway if it penetrates and it rarely does.

Maybe you stop diffaming me and come up with arguments? I reported you due to flaming and diffaming me here! So I'll do with any other user trying to crash this thread or insult me. If you don't like my opinion it's your problem.


The point I want to make is that the Ostheer player can easily know what will come if the Sovjet player uses Guards or 120mm for example. They can actually prepare for incoming T 34 / 85 and build PaK's, lay mines or build their really good P4. It's off reality if you try to tell me the T34 beats the P4 in a 1 on 1 if both players don't derp around and actually know what they do. So I agree with Katitof here.

All right go on, but next time you post bullshit like "Panther is strong enough", please think twice about Axis players's reactions. TY. I'm not angry or mad, i'm just bored to report you every time i see blatant flamebait. The discussion is about Medium armor comparatively to each other, and my last point was that nothing could be changed in the Allies Armor department, rather just bring Wehr Panther on par with Oberkommando Panther. Then you replied that Axis tanks were good enough as is, which is commonly accepted in the community as a wrong point. I do think Panzer4 is a perfectly balanced tank right now, but Panther strength/cost and Tier4 requirements are both a bad joke for Wehrmacht atm. I think it is hard to deny that.

its quite interesting really how relic designs tanks.

First they model smoke canisters on the t-34. Then give them to the PIV.

Then they give the tank with 300hp an ability that makes it faster than a 500hp tank.

Honestly, E8 needs a price increase to 145 or 140.

T-34/85 is fine.

Panther needs a buff of some kind i feel.

Everything else is fine.

Except kv-1 costing 145 fuel (wtf?)

okay i invised like the entire third page of this thread cmom guys enough with the flaming, trolling, baiting, and this other off topic nonsense.

I agree.
The e8 is very potent, it can actually defeat the p4 AND it has a rotating turret. If you compare this to all other allied tanks, this is a major difference.
(It is also true for Jackson, but at least that has very low health.)

I actually like that you can use German tanks for quick strikes: get in, do damage, pop smoke and turbo, get out rather reliably. This should not be possible for Allies to maintain basic faction design and differences.