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Allied Medium Tanks Overperforming/too spammable?

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27 Jul 2014, 19:49 PM
#63
avatar of miragefla
Developer Relic Badge

Posts: 1304 | Subs: 13

This is bullshit. I play 1v1 and the E8 comes at exactly the right time--about the same time as a panther. Since Panzershreks > Bazookas, the Axis are already winning the AT war, and 2 E8s (to be able to beat a panther or tiger) are 270 fuel. The E8 should be inferior to the Panther but only barely.

Then again, axis fanboys who don't want more than 10% Allies


How many high-level replay games do we see the Panther being deployed outside of OKW, again?
27 Jul 2014, 19:50 PM
#64
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Jul 2014, 19:35 PMCruzz
There's no reason EZ8s should come any earlier in CPs than T34/85s.

There's no reason why the Ostheer Panther should have significantly worse stats even at vet0 than the OKW Panther, and the unit could use those stat buffs rather than the OKW version getting nerfed down to the Ostheer level.


Agree with that.
Fuel cost to 140 wouldn't be bad also for ez8.

Rest posts and ridiculous suggestions are general knee jerk reactions.
27 Jul 2014, 20:28 PM
#65
avatar of Dullahan

Posts: 1384

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Jul 2014, 19:35 PMCruzz
There's no reason EZ8s should come any earlier in CPs than T34/85s.

There's no reason why the Ostheer Panther should have significantly worse stats even at vet0 than the OKW Panther, and the unit could use those stat buffs rather than the OKW version getting nerfed down to the Ostheer level.


OKW is supposed to have stronger, more expensive units.

Ostheer panther is weaker, but you also have all sorts of over medium tanks to support it. The support units for the OKW panther are much lighter vehicles. (flak track, panther, luchs)
27 Jul 2014, 20:30 PM
#66
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

Well, Pumas are the same.

Doesn't really make sense why Panthers should be different at vet0.

Better scaling, sure, but better default stats?

OKW Panther/puma already arrives much quicker then wehr ones, that is their elite perk.
27 Jul 2014, 20:35 PM
#67
avatar of Cruzz

Posts: 1221 | Subs: 41



OKW is supposed to have stronger, more expensive units.

Ostheer panther is weaker, but you also have all sorts of over medium tanks to support it. The support units for the OKW panther are much lighter vehicles. (flak track, panther, luchs)


Lighter like Ostwind, PIV, King Tiger, Jagdtiger, Sturmtiger? Not that the OKW light vehicles are exactly that "light" seeing how the Luchs and Puma are both effectively more durable than a Stug G.

It's just stupid that the OKW Panther has such a stat advantage even when you ignore the vet bonuses (which are much better for OKW as well), and the stat changes are largely what the Panther has needed for months anyway to give it some kind of actual role in the Ostheer unit selection.
27 Jul 2014, 20:45 PM
#68
avatar of KovuTalli

Posts: 332

Tbh, I don't even really like the Okw Panther much, it still has pretty bad accuracy at range and on the move.
27 Jul 2014, 21:00 PM
#69
avatar of Cardboard Tank

Posts: 978

What exactly is the difference between vet0 OKW and Ost Panther?

Wouldn´t it make more sense that the one with higher teching cost was more effective?
27 Jul 2014, 21:03 PM
#70
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

Main difference is OKW one is more accurate.
27 Jul 2014, 21:17 PM
#71
avatar of KovuTalli

Posts: 332

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Jul 2014, 21:03 PMKatitof
Main difference is OKW one is more accurate.


Got the stats? As it doesn't seem much if any better to me in game. Seems to miss just about as often at max range and while on the move.
27 Jul 2014, 21:20 PM
#72
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

OKW
Accuracy far:
0.035
Accuracy near:
0.055


Wehr
Accuracy far:
0.025
Accuracy near:
0.05


(I wonder how many people accusing me of being biased even knew about this)
27 Jul 2014, 21:26 PM
#73
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4928

If anything I'd say it's that Axis Tanks are underperforming, for cost, compared to some allied counterparts. Rather than nerf Allies, I'd call for a slight buff to Axis armour, or a cost reduction to match.

Sherman to Panzer IV, for 10 manpower and 15 fuel, you get a 20 armour advantage, and marginally better range performance. You lose out on HE shells and smoke. For 30 manpower and 10 fuel more, you get a 35 armour and 55 penetration advantage, the mobility disadvantage is negligible. If I could wait 30 seconds and come up with a Panzer IV Ausf. H (Easy Eight stats) instead of a Ausf G (Current PIV), I'd never use the G again.
27 Jul 2014, 21:29 PM
#74
avatar of Cruzz

Posts: 1221 | Subs: 41

What exactly is the difference between vet0 OKW and Ost Panther?


OKW Panther has, in no particular order:

30% smaller scatter penalty on the move (1.7 vs 2 multiplication)
30% smaller accuracy penalty on the move (0.65 vs 0.5 multiplication)
up to 40% higher accuracy when standing still (0.035 vs 0.025 far)
25% higher dps on hull MG (8.1 vs 6.4)
27 Jul 2014, 21:54 PM
#75
avatar of KovuTalli

Posts: 332

Ty for stats.

Even with the 30% less penalty for on the move it still misses more often than not, I would honestly just use conversion sit on shrecks/mines/Puppchen and wait for KT.
27 Jul 2014, 22:11 PM
#76
avatar of Dullahan

Posts: 1384

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Jul 2014, 20:30 PMKatitof
Well, Pumas are the same.

Doesn't really make sense why Panthers should be different at vet0.

Better scaling, sure, but better default stats?

OKW Panther/puma already arrives much quicker then wehr ones, that is their elite perk.


Ostheer puma is doctrinal.

OKW panther doesn't really arrive quicker than Wehr. They both take fucking forever.

They have different armies supporting their tanks. The OKW panther also has 5 levels of vet, but Ostheer has cheaper repair, doctrinal stuff like free smoke, more supporting vehicles etc. They're different armies.

That said, I don't really care either way since it's a slight accuracy change.

27 Jul 2014, 22:15 PM
#77
avatar of The_Courier

Posts: 665

I would be fine with putting OKW Panther stats on the Ost one. Ostheer T4 needs love anyway. OKW already has the KT and ridiculous veterancy to reflect their elite status, they don't need a magically superior Panther.

Anymore than that, however, I'm not sure. The Panther is still a pretty great tank hunter. Sure, it can,t solo two heavier mediums, but I'm pretty sure it's not supposed to given the cost disparity. It sill wins 1v1 against anything save an IS-2, and even then luck and micro can make it the victor. Well supported and using its range/speed advantage (Blitzkrieg yo) it can deal serious damage. Stat normalization and a slight price decrease are the most it needs.

A larger problem could very well be the call ins by themselves, which allow you to have instant medium/heavies (rather than wait, for example, a full 60 seconds for Jacksons) with no need to tech. Perhaps call-in costs across the board need an increase, to reflect the fact they arrive quicker without the player having to commit additional fuel for teching.
27 Jul 2014, 22:16 PM
#78
avatar of coh2player

Posts: 1571

Do you know the stats for the command panther?

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Jul 2014, 21:20 PMKatitof
OKW


Wehr


(I wonder how many people accusing me of being biased even knew about this)
27 Jul 2014, 22:20 PM
#79
avatar of CieZ

Posts: 1468 | Subs: 4

The E8 is not even slightly overperforming. It isn't spammable, it doesn't do too much damage, it doesn't have too much armour or health, and it doesn't have too much penetration. For what it is, a mid game tank that gets countered by the next tank up, it's a perfectly fine tank.

Panthers are also fucking awesome, don't know what you people are talking about.


Do you even play this game?

E8s are, by far, the best medium tank in the game and can carry you through the entire mid/late easily. They're the USF equivalent of the T34/85 - which we've seen countless times completely dominate the mid/late game in the highest levels of play.

Please show me a 1v1 replay of two top 100 players where the Ost Panther is even remotely useful.

Sorry to break your delusional fantasy but the Ost Panther is probably the worst performing tank per cost in the game currently. I still don't like the OKW Panther, but at least it has 5 levels of vet and significantly better stats to make up for the absolutely ridiculous cost.
27 Jul 2014, 22:24 PM
#80
avatar of Cruzz

Posts: 1221 | Subs: 41


OKW panther doesn't really arrive quicker than Wehr. They both take fucking forever.


Cost to get Panther as OKW:
200/40+200/80+490/175=890/295
Cost to get Panther as Wehrmacht:
200/45+200/55+200/60+80/10+120/15+160/30+490/175 = 1450/390

If you don't use the muni to fuel conversion then the fuel price is comparable with the 66% income, but the manpower difference is huge enough to make it ridiculous to say it wouldn't arrive quicker for OKW.


They have different armies supporting their tanks. The OKW panther also has 5 levels of vet, but Ostheer has cheaper repair, doctrinal stuff like free smoke, more supporting vehicles etc. They're different armies.


Cheaper repair like the free repair engineers around the tech building? Or cheaper repair as in having 320mp sturmpios that at vet2 with minesweepers actually have three times faster repair than vet0 (or two times faster than vet2) ostheer pios?

Free smoke!? I wish I had that.


That said, I don't really care either way since it's a slight accuracy change.


Accuracy is a huge deal for a unit with bad scatter and long range like the Panther.

Do you know the stats for the command panther?



Command Panther has the stats of the Ostheer Panther and gets smaller veterancy bonuses to its own stats, but the aura improves per level.
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