Katyusha seriously need a nerf

I understand that this thread has more or less degraded into a stuka vs katyusha debate, and though I don't think it should be the focus, I realize why that's what the topic is. So with that disclaimer in place.

If we look at these two units separately, which I believe is necessary as they are two different factions functioning against two different enemies, I think we can get to real discussion.

The reason so many people are baffled by the katyusha's effectiveness is honestly, how devastating it can be to the German armies, but more specifically OKW. I'll focus on OKW and RU as that seems appropriate lately. With economic strains, veterency emphasis, and elite unit preservation in mind, the katyusha is simply far too punishing. I haven't played a game since the update where either myself, an opponent, or an ally has not preemtively retreated at the sound of katyusha fire and STILL lost a full squad (often vetted) outright within the first wave. There's still three more. This also isn't considering the issue that OKW is built on a foundation of building decisions. Currently, the katyusha makes that decision for you. In two waves of barrages, whatever truck you deployed is gone.

Now, a lot of people have argued that "well, that's your fault for being aggressive, pay the price." That MIGHT be valid if that was the only realistic way of uprooting these bases. But we all know it's not. Furthermore, this is not just a unit that destroys bases, it goes from blob control on an extreme level to killing off a single squad attempting to capture a point.

The stuka is a separate topic.

The stuka is useful for blob control, and while yes, there is a strong chance a few units may be wiped depending on the group's size, unless the units are marching in a very careful and narrow line on a very predictable path, you're not going to have the same effect as if a katyusha was firing on that same collective. THAT right there, is not a problem -- the problem is how horribly strong it is currently. Let me repeat that. I do think that if you had two of the exact same groups moving in the exact same manner and hit directly by both a katyusha and a stuka, the katyusha should be awarded the higher death toll. I don't like homogenization. I like when differentiating units have differentiating strengths and weaknesses.

The stuka, I feel, shines in very certain scenarios. Clearing out buildings and hitting a set up line. However, when a line, perfectly centered, is squared up perfectly and fired on, you rarely squad wipe healthy and repaired set up squads. Infact, I'd say a third of the time the artillery skips a beat and all but takes a few models. That's not a problem either.

Just to get this out prior to counter points because I can feel this one creeping up fast; to compare mobile blobs and the effectiveness of each is almost silly. The targeting reticles themselves should be enough evidence of that. It's like comparing the effected area of a streamlined laser and a shotgun.

All that said. This shouldn't be a debate where the validity of the subject is justified by another unit.

i think you're forgeting a few important things regarding stuka. There are chokepoints or obvious retreat points in many maps, like, say, the roads on semoisky and kholodny.
So is isn't hard to predict these and wipe them, especially if you fire it behind a unit taking damage in a fight.
Outside of a fight, sure you can move to the side to avoid it, but when you're fighting sturmpios, or any strong okw unit you can't afford to delay your retreat.

Also losing squads for SU isn't just a minor inconvenience. If you lose your vetted conscripts or penals or guards, what are you gonna do with vanilla scripts against vetted okw or even obers ?

A unit should not overshadow another unit the way the katyuska overshadow artillery pieces.

As it stands, this katyuska v2.0 is the reason why you won't ever see an howitzer from the soviet side. It destroys building faster, it's more affordable and it can move.

A unit should not overshadow another unit the way the katyuska overshadow artillery pieces.

As it stands, this katyuska v2.0 is the reason why you won't ever see an howitzer from the soviet side. It destroys building faster, it's more affordable and it can move.

We build howitzers + b4 all the time.
They are extremely strong against the forward HQ's of the axis.

i think you're forgeting a few important things regarding stuka. There are chokepoints or obvious retreat points in many maps, like, say, the roads on semoisky and kholodny.
So is isn't hard to predict these and wipe them, especially if you fire it behind a unit taking damage in a fight.
Outside of a fight, sure you can move to the side to avoid it, but when you're fighting sturmpios, or any strong okw unit you can't afford to delay your retreat.

Also losing squads for SU isn't just a minor inconvenience. If you lose your vetted conscripts or penals or guards, what are you gonna do with vanilla scripts against vetted okw or even obers ?

You don't need to predict anything with Katyusha. You place your targeting circle and stuff dies. You can repeat this after a while or you can build another one and add to the injury.
You don't need to come as close as with Stuka as well.

The only thing that we're going to be able to agree on, I suspect, is that all rocket artillery is currently crazy damaging.

The problem with current rocket artillery being that it's almost the same as conventional artillery in terms of damage output whilst having MUCH higher rates of fire, resulting in much higher area saturation, which means more death before retreats and higher chances of squad wipes overall.

The Katyusha and Werfer both use the same AoE profile and completely ruin a fairly large circle, with most things in that area suffering horribly. Shotgun approach, and far too damaging for what they are.

The Stuka has unbelievably high area saturation (and one shots buildings for some reason), but requires more thought in placement, sort of. AT guns cannot avoid the blast even if they try so long as you align the shot down the gun barrel, making it a perfect way to just gib an AT gun before pushing tanks. Or, with careful play on certain maps (trois point), you can wait for an opponent to have to retreat and hit their retreat path, wiping every unit on a given bridge of path with hilarious accuracy.

All 3 are currently over preforming massively. The Kat/Werfer and Stuka are all OP, in two slightly different ways.

Yes, the stuka has a higher skill ceiling, but yes, it also has much, much more damage potential when used right.

despite your nice essay on katyusha vs stuka, which is in my opinion very much 1 sided. i only want to talk about this part especially the ones in bold. elite status, economic strains and veterancy emphasis.

I wish you would have engaged the full post, but at least it's progressive. As far as the one sidedness of my post. Yes, it absolutely is one sided. In this current issue, I don't think the two are comparable. I don't really see how that matters. Just because I think the katyusha is overpowered does not mean I'm obligated to say the stuka is too. I think a number of the posters championing the katyusha mistake that fanboyism. While that may be the case for some, it's a mistake to assume all similar view points are; particularly when they've been so many with actual reasoning.

1stly, the only strains okw has are fuel. they get 100% munitions and manpower rate and as far as i know, the katyusha only counters infantry. it has a pen of only 50 and will not do anything to armour. at best, light vehicles can be damaged by stray rockets and destroyed by precision strikes. with that said, katyusha does barely any fuel damage and thus economic strains should not be used as a point in the argument. all other factions are also hit equally hard by artillery and manpower losses, so whats the point of bringing up, economic strains?

That's not true. Light vehicles are not just damaged, they are outright destroyed by the volley. Furthermore, actual medium armor can be destroyed, and depending on the type, it can be done so with as little as half health. That is direct fuel damage

However, even if it wasn't a threat to armor, it still murders deployed supply trucks. That is 40/80 fuel in itself.

But depleted fuel in the way of lost units is not what we're talking about here. I think you may have misunderstood the point. It is very rare you see an OKW player double up on stukas, much less three or four of them. Depending on the game size, this is not the case with the katyusha. 2-4 is the current norm per player. The reason for this is because economic reality. The fuel is just not a luxury OKW can throw around. And if it could, to do so with the stuka just isn't half as effective as it is with the katyusha.

Also, as far as your point with manpower, yes, everyone loses units, but it does effect OKW to a greater degree than RU and US forces, even more so than ostheer.

2ndly, elite status. there is nothing elite about okw, it is merely a description. they do not pay a premium for their units. infantry still cost as they should and infact are too cheap in some cases. for instance, obers and fallshirms. they cost around 400mp(not sure about falls) and for their cost, they do more dps than guards who when upgraded are 330 + 75*1.66 = 454mp. for comparison, the lmg34 obers have alone does more dps than the entire guards squad. of course, guards can button tanks and does minimal damage to armour but the point stands, where's the premium cost for their 'elite status'.

I don't think that's true at all. This isn't an MMO where your balancing out classes that individual players are playing singularly. The moniker "elite" does not have the same connotations in an RTS. This is precisely why economy and upkeep are in place, to balance out certain details -- like a faction based on elite units.

However, my reasoning is also unnecessary. I played in WFA alpha very extensively, the army essence statement was very clear in explaining what they were attempting to achieve with OKW, which was an elite army built on a large array of elite options that required choice due to resources.

3rdly, veterancy emphasis. again means nothing. which faction do not need veterancy to survive in the field? the reason why okw infantry can vet to the high heavens is unknown, maybe for vehicles, yes because the fuel strain is there and they must preserve their vehicles and should be rewarded for it. but not for infantry, all faction MUST preserve their squads and again, the okw dont pay a premium for their infantry units, yet are able to vet to 5. this is not a real major problem early, but it adds up when volks with schrecks vet so fast to 5 and 4 k98 can hold the ground so long and dish out damage against dp-28s and conscript fire.

I think you're focusing on one part of a much larger post too much. I'm not sure why this point was singled out as there's a pretty simply retort.

Yes, all factions must preserve their squads, but model per model, this is not nearly as punishing for Allie as it is for Axis, and again more specifically, OKW.

One quick way to explain that without getting into number details -- the reason the ostheer sniper is NEVER played is a direct result of this problem. Picking off a model just doesn't matter half as much as it does versus axis. Now convert that to large scale warfare. I have to repeat myself. It's like comparing a precision laser's area of effect to four shotgun rounds.

4thly, again said for the sake of saying. all factions do not get the whole tech unlocked. soviets must choose between t3 and t4. Ostheer cannot unlock all battle phases and get tanks fast enough. what building decisions are you talking about that is so unique to the okw?

The placement? It would be foolish to argue that the British of CoH were not balanced around the idea of a forward operating base. It would be just as foolish to say that OKW was not meant to have that decision.

The last sentence is really disgusting. Don't want to get hated because of your own opinion? Join our german side. I reported you to the Admins, I hope they see that you are just insulting other users over 4 pages... Bye bye

This has nothing to do with his opinion, yours, or anyone else's. And, I never said anyone hated anyone. I stated that if you wanted your posts to be taken seriously, you need to bring real perspective to the debate, not the same thing over and over that has been reasoned with PAGES ago. I would love nothing more than for you or anyone else to bring well thought points to the table. Stop being so dramatic.

As far as insulting others. There is a lot worse on these forums, particularly this thread, than anything I've said. Worry about your own choice of words and behavior, there's plenty there to keep you busy.

You don't need to predict anything with Katyusha. You place your targeting circle and stuff dies. You can repeat this after a while or you can build another one and add to the injury.
You don't need to come as close as with Stuka as well.

hyperbole much ? you aren't guaranteed to hit unless we're talking very close proximity. and you shouldn't take more than 1-2 volley bfore you're out of the zone.

Anyhow, my point isn't that katyusha isn't overperforming, but people saying stuka is absolutely fine and rarely wipes are just exagerrating.

Katyusha isn't as reliable as a retreat killer as the stuka. It's also very clumsy, and if you're not directly facing your target, it will take it a while to reposition and fire, so hitting units on the move isn't as much of a nobrainer as you make it sound.



Someone else mentionned howitzer and that katyushas are the reason we don't see those, i don't think it's exhaustive

Howitzer seems to take much more pop and ukpeep, and also can't move or change their facing in a decent time.
It's arerly good value for money imo.

Katyusha isn't as reliable as a retreat killer as the stuka.

yea thats because it kills everything before it can retreat.

yea thats because it kills everything before it can retreat.

Could you stop with this radical opinions? Obvious trolling...

Both things should get nerfed... Ok, the Katyusha overperforms that's obvious. But stationary artillery could definetly given more love... They just get insta bombed by some no brainer call ins!

If Katyusha had 2 minutes cd, costed 130 fuel to produce, smaller range and had tighter AoE I wouldn't mind it to stay the way it is provided damage to the base building was adjusted. Ambient building damage can be the same.

We build howitzers + b4 all the time.
They are extremely strong against the forward HQ's of the axis.

Good, I'm sure you and your teammates build katsyuskas now as well. Because why wouldn't you? Arty is basically a hard counter for OKW and forward buildings as it stands.

You would not need any additionnal arty pieces in 1v1. Except if you go t3 of course, but everybody seems to go t4 these days...

Yeah, in team games there is no reason for Sovjet to go T3. Why? Because on T4 I have an useful AT unit and the mighty Katyusha. The faction design of Sovjets atm is pretty bad and the germans suffer due to this. They are actually well designed (except maybe OKW due to their weakness to Artillery).

If Katyusha had 2 minutes cd, costed 130 fuel to produce, smaller range and had tighter AoE I wouldn't mind it to stay the way it is provided damage to the base building was adjusted. Ambient building damage can be the same.

seriously, don't you think that's a slightly overthetop insane nuke massive nerf ?

we're talking about a unit made of paper, with very little penetration, costing 300+ mp and 12 pop.

Unless it becomes a calliope in terms of barrage, what you propose mean no one will use it.

I mean come on, some of you talk as if it was a long range sturmtiger.

And even it doesn't take 2 minutes to reload i think.

Holy shit this is turning into the fanboy war of the century.

Could not agree more; it would seem that these forums warriors don't even play Company of heroes 2 any longer, what they do play is Company of Fanboys: Forum Fronts...

Have any of you tried tracking down and killing arty vehicles?

Have any of you tried tracking down and killing arty vehicles?

oh god here we go again...