Soviets - A core faction discussion

Disclaimer: The poster was primarily a Soviet player in 2v2, 3v3, and 4v4 game modes. Now on Axis "vacation mode"with 4v4's still the preferred game mode.

Hello internet strangers,

This thread is to discuss the entire Soviet core faction and not just a singular unit. I have put in a lot of game time since the WFA release and have some observations that are worthy of discussion.

Napalms Observations

• Soviets must rely on commanders in order to compete mid-late game. Is this intended? I'm not exactly sure. I don't think it needs to be this way.
  
• Cheese tactics are necessary due to poorly performing non-doctrinal infantry. This is most prevalent in OKW vs Soviet matches. Note the lack of soviet infantry that are good at range.
  
• PQ's statement that Soviet is the faction of hard counters is untrue. On a per unit comparison the Axis will always have the better unit.
  

Small weapons profiles thanks to w0000000000f


T0
Conscripts Conscripts are cheap infantry that have decent utility but lack the ability to counter mid to late game OKW infantry. The balance vs Gren and Volk is great but the challenge is when late game infantry hit the field and the conscripts become completely over shadowed. Should a T0 unit be able to counter late game infantry? No, not really. They remain relevant when upgraded with AT nades or the PPSH in the late game.
Combat Engineers Don't let the name fool you. There is no 'Combat' in these units without the flamethrower upgrade. They build neat things. That is the end of that.

T1
Penal Squads Penal Squads are in a bit of a odd spot. They perform better than conscripts at close range but loose out at range. The flamethrower upgrade and satchel ability are great. However, similar to the conscripts they quickly become over shadowed by Axis mid to late game infantry.
Soviet Snipers Works as intended. Effective when well managed. Nothing really to add here.
M3 Scout Car This unit was nerfed as expected. How the nerf was conducted leaves a lot to be desired. The M3 has now developed a trait I'd consider immersion breaking. When attempting to reverse from a stand still the M3 will lurch forward. I'm assuming this was done to give the Axis an opportunity to Faust it but it seems really silly. You are either reversing or you are not.

T2
ZiS Anti-tank gun Works as intended. Effective when well managed. Nothing really to add here.
Maxim Maxim's appear to be the next thing folks are super vocal about. Given the soviet's lack of non-doctrinal infantry choices Maxim's are the obvious solution. They provide suppression and damage. Maxim's are required to hold the StrumPioneers and Assault Grens at bay.
82 MM Mortar Works as intended. Effective when well managed. Nothing really to add here except if you haven't tried them since the AoE change you are in for a great surprise.

T3
T70 Timing is very critical with this unit as it runs the risk of coming out when it is already redundant. It costs a lot of fuel for such a high risk unit at 70. OKW have numerous AT options available at the time this unit hits the field.
M5 Half Track Works as intended. Effective when well managed. Nothing really to add here.
T34/76 Similar to the T70 it is a high risk unit as the OKW have numerous AT options available at the time this unit hits the field. The Puma is amazing against the T34/76. Most likely intended.

T4
SU76 This is the worst unit of the entire Soviet faction. Every faction has it's lame duck but I think this one takes the cake. It struggles to counter light armor, lacks surviveability, and is not effective against infantry. The "free" barrage ability is of high risk as it can be countered by most Axis infantry and armor. This unit lacks a clearly defined role.
Katyusha This is an interesting unit and has the potential of being a very powerful blob buster. It is completely overshadowed by the walking stuka though. Is this intended? more than likely. Could it be buffed to become close to the walking stuka in terms of blob busting power? Sure! With a price increase of course.
SU85 This unit used to be popular but a series of adjustments to most armor units have dropped this unit from most build lists which is a shame. This is supposed to be the Soviet's dedicated AT platform but is very high risk due to highly mobile Axis armor. To compound things the SU85 seems to like shooting infantry as a primary target rather than armor. Back in May the SU85 received significant nerfs (Armor from 180 to 140, Rear armor from 80 to 70, Manpower from 320 to 340, Fuel from 115 to 120). Since that time Blitz has been reintroduced and the OKW Puma can make very quick work of the SU85's weak armor.

Napalms Balancing Recommendations

• PPSH becomes a unlock ability when the Soviet's build T3 or T4. This will allow conscripts to serve a purpose beyond AT nades come late game. Will this ever happen? Doubtful.
  
• Penals receive a weapons profile update between the range of 15 and 35. This will help fill the gap of non-doctrinal infantry which are decent at range. Even .3 a SVT will make a difference and further define the roles of Conscripts vs Penals.
  
• T70 to get a fuel cost reduction. From 70 to 60.
  
• SU76 becomes a mobile ZiS with the same weapons profile as the ZiS. I still wouldn't build this unit due to no serviceability but at least it fills a role.
  
• SU85 is revisited given Blitz's reintroduction and the Puma. A surviveability buff would go a long way to making this unit something to be feared.
  

My closing thoughts are that as of now the Soviet's are forced to select commanders based on weak non-doctrinal units. Addressing some of the issues in the core factions design would go a long way in breaking the current meta of predictable commander selection. I too, am tired of building Maxim's and T34/85's call in's. As a player I would like to be able to build more combined arms armies without being punished for it late game.

How'd we end up in this state?
Lead Relic balancer pqumsieh has a lot to do with this current situation.


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In theory what he has stated about the Soviet faction is fine. In practice it is not.

What can we do to get some changes?

Politely lobby pqumsieh. When the beta testing goes into 'open' mode as announced at GamesCon participate in it and be a positive contributor. Give solid evidence as to how and why the Soviet core faction needs to be addressed.

I was expecting this to a be lolcake thread (thank god for that).

PPsh conscripts are much more useful since the weapon profile was adjusted and it made them able to hit things that were not standing right in front of them. I've found several of them to be pretty useful when attacking obers, oorah in and focus fire as their dps at point blank is pretty decent. I think it probably could do with being a standard upgrade rather than doctrinal. Helps them become useful in the lategame.

SU-76 is a wierd one. It can do quite nice damage due to its range and rof but imo is lacking penetration. Struggles with heavy armour quite badly. Barrage ability is really nice though. I feel a penetration increase would see this unit used more but I think it should remain the way it is health / armour wise.

SU-85 is a tricky one. If you overbuff it (like normal) then its a big problem. If its hard to kill it can just "sit" there and beat on axis armour. I've not really used it in WFA so I only have experience of fighting against it.

My closing thoughts are that as of now the Soviet's are forced to select commanders based on weak non-doctrinal units. Addressing some of the issues in the core factions design would go a long way in breaking the current meta of predictable commander selection.

To be honest the Soviets have been like this the entire game. It was one of the big differences with Soviets vs wehrmacht because you already had a strong core army, commanders were just used as a little bit extra, rather than being very important with Soviets.

I too, am tired of building Maxim's and T34/85's call in's. As a player I would like to be able to build more combined arms armies without being punished for it late game.

Call ins can get pretty boring whether you are playing Axis vs Allies. How would you feel about removing the T-34/85 from commanders and instead being some form of upgrade from T-34/76's? Their stats could be adjusted to allow for them being a core unit available to all but would reduce people just call in spamming (atleast for them) and "force" players to build T3/T4.

Strafe has been rendered kind of useless with OKW in games, I find it only gets 1 or 2 strafes off before its shot down by OKW Flak stuff (Flak ht and base defenses) which is pretty frustrating.

Not gonna lie, the introduction of Rifles had made penals all the more lackluster.

Sure, satchels are great, but the SVT is otherwise pretty much a joke compared to the damage output of a rifle squad- which is T0 rather than T1 and a mere 10MP more.

And certain commanders even let riflemen have flamethrowers. Or MG's. And they always can have BAR and Zooks and three types of nade.

Penals need a little love, they really do. Ideally, I'd like to see that SVT line follow the grand line a little more closely as range goes up.

Other than- T70 and SU-76 are standard no-go units, would appreciate everything suggested. I still think the SU needs some mobility back rather than armour- the jagd has the heavy TD down. But the re-introduction of blitz and none-doctrinal Puma means simply ignoring an SU's arc of fire is surprisingly easy.

Not that I would ever complain about a buff to the SU76, but how is its barrage countered by infantry and tanks? You can cancel the barrage at any time by giving the unit another order.

what a well written, well thought out and proven post. Props for not flaming, over exaggerating,or lying. You have very great points in this thread noting how the Soviet core design seems to be flawed even in the perspective of intention by Relic.

so what? the dmg is per entity, soviet squads have more entities.

German squads need higher dps to compensate the health pool of 6 man squads

simple logic

I dislike so many units that should be core units for soviets are locked behind commanders, kv-1 should indeed be a tank for T4.

so what? the dmg is per entity, soviet squads have more entities.

German squads need higher dps to compensate the health pool of 6 man squads

simple logic

I understand this logic. It's why I never said anything about changing conscripts damage. Penal's need a clearer role and could fill a void if their damage profile is adjusted in the mid to higher ranges.

Penals role are assault troops, they go in, fight close, and use explosives to clear fortifications. Ironically they're more like real-life Assault Engineers than the Shock Troops are.

The problem that I have is that conscripts AND penals both fulfill similar roles, close range combat units which don't scale well into the late game. The reason that maxim spam is so prevalent is because it is the only way to defeat German infantry without sticking a rifle in their face. If we could change the role of one of these units slightly to make them more adept at holding the line, perhaps by giving conscripts a version of the ostruppen cover buff, we could give the soviets more choices early and late game in terms of mainline infantry. (obviously this would also mean that the conscripts would have to lose some accuracy when not in cover/ on the move).

What do you guys think?

What do you guys think?

This is exactly what I was aiming for.

I feel the su76 should get an ai buff like the stug did a few patches ago so it can fill its assault gun role, penals don't have any utility be sides their satchels so I wouldn't mind if they got a buff to their long range damage along with a slight prices increase.

This seems like a soviet whine thread detailed in a nice format. Ur nation is a joke and relic is favouring them big time.

Do you ever give it a rest?

Agree on all points, especially about Penals an SU76.

I really like the structure of the soviets, they play very different from all the other factions, bring them more in line with the ostheer structure would would take aways what is really unique about using the faction. To say that the design is inherently bad is an opinion as it is well balanced and you can certaily win with a variety of strategies, some more powerful than others but that can be said about any faction. Also the su 76 is great and I love it. Get it vs opponents that go heavy inf as a stopgap to su 85, kv 1 or t3485, it's free barrage is VERY underrated.

I am a stupid okw/wehrmacht fanboy and don't have any arguments, so let me cry a little here and a little there and insult anyone who doesn't agree

ya whatever.

Disagree heavily with the observation that Soviet non doc inf is useless. I feel it's mostly due to the fact that the doctrinal infantry is easier to micro and handle.

One small explanation to the unit profiles, since they always make it seem as if Soviets were so far worse or whatever:

As a rule of thumb comparing an Ostheer and Soviet squad, the Ostheer squad should have more than twice the damage for the squads to be even. This is due to the fact Soviets have +50% weapons and +50% HP, that means given the same weapons the Soviet squad would be roughly 2.25 times stronger. Cutting weapon damage by roughly this value (roughly, since 6 entities have other disadvantages) means the squads are even.

It doesn't really matter how many guns they have if these guns combined already do much less then german counterparts.

I think Soviets are in a good spot vs OH, but suffer a lot against OKW. Conscripts are basically a non-issue vs Sturmpios, struggle against Volks increased durability and grenade, and don't even have the DPS to properly engage the Kubel. Penal troops fare better, but going T1 means you have no AT whatsoever if they decide to go for AAHT. To counter that, you can go T3... but after you'd better end the game fast or float fuel for a doctrinal heavy because OKW panzers laugh at your T-34s. T4 is in a weird spot; the SU-85 isn't so good, SU-76 is Ok but won't do anything special, and the Katyusha was nerfed too much.

Going T2 vs OKW means your Maxim micro must be up to par, since as I said conscripts will easily lose to their infantry. You then need Shocks to supplement your troops, but that pigeon-holds you into certain doctrines.

Overall I've found that T1 to T3 works best. You need to pound the OKW to dust early game in order to have a chance. Vetted penals do rather well for themselves generally. A sniper works well and can be good against Obers but must be microed because they kill it in 2 seconds. Bring out a T-70 or T-34 to start picking off infantry, then save for an IS-2 or T-34/85s. Shocks are useful but always support them, especially against Obers.