Nice data, Milka! Are the enemyDPS/PGrenDPS values normalized for cost or would I need to factor in the cost myself?
For example: Rifles vs. Pgrens, 280/340 = 0.824; so basically I'd do 0.40/0.824 = 0.485; Which means that at their most effective range, for cost, they are slightly more effective than two squads of rifle men. Of course at longer ranges (or closer ranges) their effectiveness is lower.
Not trying to make any points or so, just contemplating about factoring unit cost into those effectiveness comparisons.
July 15th patch?
16 Jul 2014, 13:33 PM
#81
Posts: 604
16 Jul 2014, 14:20 PM
#82
Posts: 1705
Main problem with pzgrens are 40 MP reinforce,when usa,grens can reinforce at ~30 mp,there is zero sense in using this unit.
As for not charging frontally,thats what rifles are doing right now and usually getting away with it for initial larger MP cost they beat grens at all ranges while having less reinforce.
As for not charging frontally,thats what rifles are doing right now and usually getting away with it for initial larger MP cost they beat grens at all ranges while having less reinforce.
16 Jul 2014, 14:33 PM
#83
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
People use sturmpios constantly and believe it or not, they do the job well.
Just as pgrens that actually have proper infantry support in form of grens and HMGs.
Stop thinking pgrens are shocks mirror, because they are not.
Play them defensively, protecting your weapon teams or offensively, after you suppress with HMG42, move in for the kill.
If its works with OKW inferior volks and lolkubel, it works just as well with proper army of wehrmacht.
And reinforce cost have nothing with it, because its tied to the units cost and surprise surprise here, reinforcing 5-6 man squad of equal price costs actually MORE then reinforcing 3 pgrens.
Just as pgrens that actually have proper infantry support in form of grens and HMGs.
Stop thinking pgrens are shocks mirror, because they are not.
Play them defensively, protecting your weapon teams or offensively, after you suppress with HMG42, move in for the kill.
If its works with OKW inferior volks and lolkubel, it works just as well with proper army of wehrmacht.
And reinforce cost have nothing with it, because its tied to the units cost and surprise surprise here, reinforcing 5-6 man squad of equal price costs actually MORE then reinforcing 3 pgrens.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
16 Jul 2014, 15:50 PM
#84
Posts: 978
People use sturmpios constantly and believe it or not, they do the job well.There is a distinct difference between having four StG44s at 0:00 and having them at 5:00.
Everything the Grens with LMG can do better. Defensive usage, not moving, far range? Grens excel at that and are in the long run cheaper. Why should I run up with PGs into suppressed troops if a Gren can just stand next to the MG and do the same job?
Play them defensively, protecting your weapon teams or offensively, after you suppress with HMG42, move in for the kill.
16 Jul 2014, 16:02 PM
#85
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
There is a distinct difference between having four StG44s at 0:00 and having them at 5:00.
As far as I'm aware, sturmpios do not explode on 5 min mark and are usable throughout the game and its not like thay have amazing combat scaling even with 5 vet levels.
However what they do not have is the received accuracy modifier that pgrens still do.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
16 Jul 2014, 16:20 PM
#86
Posts: 1063
But you can't just compare Sturmpio and PzGren in a vaccum. For Ostheer, 1 PzGren is 1.5 less Gren squad in the field, which can do everything better. For OKW, Sturmpio is vital early game because volk is crap without vet and kubel armor is made of wet tissue that need Sturmpios nearby 24/7 scales into late game because they have the surplus MP if they preserve their unit well. OKW is all about making a large push and avoiding small skirmishes while Ostheer excels in Skirmishises and locking down sectorm, and that means you need as much unit on the field as possible.
Simply put, PzGren just simply not worth it when everything they do , a gren + pak can do better at lower mp cost and upkeep, while OKW have to use them or their early volks will get roflstomp by everybody else. The only thing PzGren is good at currently is upgrade 2 shreck and cover the pak and even that is just barely better than a gren + teller.
Simply put, PzGren just simply not worth it when everything they do , a gren + pak can do better at lower mp cost and upkeep, while OKW have to use them or their early volks will get roflstomp by everybody else. The only thing PzGren is good at currently is upgrade 2 shreck and cover the pak and even that is just barely better than a gren + teller.
16 Jul 2014, 20:16 PM
#87
Posts: 329
You have more chance of seeing a Tasmanian Tiger in game that you do PZGrens - they've been nerfed into uselessness.
Anything the PZ Gren is "meant" to do - Grens do it cheaper and better.
With the monster blobs becoming the standard meta - you'd think the PZ Grens would get some love.
Anything the PZ Gren is "meant" to do - Grens do it cheaper and better.
With the monster blobs becoming the standard meta - you'd think the PZ Grens would get some love.
16 Jul 2014, 20:38 PM
#88
Posts: 978
You have more chance of seeing a Tasmanian Tiger in game that you do PZGrens - they've been nerfed into uselessness.Exactly. American blob approaching: Stand in cover with your units as Ostheer. LMG Grens will shoot for about 10 seconds and then have to run away. PGs can open up their fire at the last seconds only and then have to run away. They will probably die if they stay longer and receive that much punishment short-mid range.^^
Anything the PZ Gren is "meant" to do - Grens do it cheaper and better.
With the monster blobs becoming the standard meta - you'd think the PZ Grens would get some love.
16 Jul 2014, 20:44 PM
#89
Posts: 329
PZ Grens were pretty rare as it was pre WF - now they're all but extinct.
The Whermacht don't have a "rambo" assault unit that ALL the other factions do - the PZGren was the only viable option up till a few patches ago.
Much like the Flame HT - the changes have just made the unit redundant.
The Whermacht don't have a "rambo" assault unit that ALL the other factions do - the PZGren was the only viable option up till a few patches ago.
Much like the Flame HT - the changes have just made the unit redundant.
17 Jul 2014, 00:52 AM
#90
Posts: 322
What Milkacow said was damn right: 90% of people using PG the wrong way 
.
I always keep a squad of Grenadier to move in front of me if I going to charge or following cover to cover. I see tons of people charging PG right into enemy without thinking a lot
.
PG is fine as a assault unit.
.I always keep a squad of Grenadier to move in front of me if I going to charge or following cover to cover. I see tons of people charging PG right into enemy without thinking a lot
.PG is fine as a assault unit.
17 Jul 2014, 10:24 AM
#91
Posts: 577
Nice data, Milka! Are the enemyDPS/PGrenDPS values normalized for cost or would I need to factor in the cost myself?
No, it's literally just dividing the DPS of a full squad at ranges to give a hint of where the best engagement range is.
PZ Grens were pretty rare as it was pre WF - now they're all but extinct.
The amount of ignorance in your post is impressive. I despise thee!
PGrens were WORSE pre WF. Shortly after WF release (or upon release) they got buffed to receive 25% less incoming accuracy. This change was NOT intended, the changelog lists 15% so it was most likely either a typo or a merge problem. Now this got corrected. They are still stronger (15% less incoming accuracy) than prior to WF.
Any other argument (that Riflemen stomp them or such) is even less true, as PGrens complement Grens extremely well against Riflemen.
I accept if your opinion is different from mine and you supply some reasoning for it, but any arguments are actually the polar opposite. They got buffed. So please tell me why you'd see them less now?
The Whermacht don't have a "rambo" assault unit that ALL the other factions do - the PZGren was the only viable option up till a few patches ago.
Rambo assault units? Like what? The only thing coming to my mind is shocks and to a degree Riflemen with BARs and smoke grenades :/
17 Jul 2014, 10:46 AM
#92
Posts: 1130
The thing is that units have changed and safe for the obersoldaten nobody was complaining about them. was the nerf to the fs and pgz necessary? i say it was not and they nerfed unit that where performing fine.
horrida flamma bella
17 Jul 2014, 11:46 AM
#93
Posts: 978
They were totally underpowered before WFA.
With WFA they became useful again. I still preferred my Grens with LMGs but every now and then I actually built one for the hell of it. But still LMG Grens where the first choice. In some situations they were on par with LMG Grens - in most cases (US blob comes to mind) you were safer with Grens.
Now even with this minor nerf again, the PGs are not useful any longer. I could built them before for the hell of it but this slight nerf causes me to not build them any longer. That´s sufficient to make the unit useless. Especially when you need to get closer to the enemy (blob) with PGs to do damage. This will often result in your PG getting killed.
PGs now remind me of the old Penal Battalion. Costing more from the start, costing more to reinforce and performing worse/ exactly like a cheaper Conscript.
With WFA they became useful again. I still preferred my Grens with LMGs but every now and then I actually built one for the hell of it. But still LMG Grens where the first choice. In some situations they were on par with LMG Grens - in most cases (US blob comes to mind) you were safer with Grens.
Now even with this minor nerf again, the PGs are not useful any longer. I could built them before for the hell of it but this slight nerf causes me to not build them any longer. That´s sufficient to make the unit useless. Especially when you need to get closer to the enemy (blob) with PGs to do damage. This will often result in your PG getting killed.
PGs now remind me of the old Penal Battalion. Costing more from the start, costing more to reinforce and performing worse/ exactly like a cheaper Conscript.
17 Jul 2014, 12:08 PM
#94
Posts: 1705
Th reinforce of the pzgren squad is why u'll never build it instead of a gren squad.
17 Jul 2014, 13:26 PM
#95
Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2
They were totally underpowered before WFA.
With WFA they became useful again. I still preferred my Grens with LMGs but every now and then I actually built one for the hell of it. But still LMG Grens where the first choice. In some situations they were on par with LMG Grens - in most cases (US blob comes to mind) you were safer with Grens.
Now even with this minor nerf again, the PGs are not useful any longer. I could built them before for the hell of it but this slight nerf causes me to not build them any longer. That´s sufficient to make the unit useless. Especially when you need to get closer to the enemy (blob) with PGs to do damage. This will often result in your PG getting killed.
PGs now remind me of the old Penal Battalion. Costing more from the start, costing more to reinforce and performing worse/ exactly like a cheaper Conscript.
And countless times it has been said that you don´t need to close distant with PGs. AND if you want to do so, just screen with other units.
And yes, i do use them on everysingle one of my games.
My controls weren't working
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.
Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.
Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.
17 Jul 2014, 15:41 PM
#96
Posts: 978
I´m pretty sure on far range PGs don´t deal much damage. And that´s where you want to keep your units as Germans to not get swallowed by the blob. LMG Grens deal huge damage on long range. PGs need to move to medium range at least. Even if they can deal damage on far range, its much less than the LMG.
And countless times it has been said that you don´t need to close distant with PGs. AND if you want to do so, just screen with other units.
And yes, i do use them on everysingle one of my games.
This being said the PG unit is redundant, less cost effective and extremely niche. You don´t build a unit that isn´t supposed to charge, but also can´t fight as good on long range as the standard infantry unit. All that for higher cost.
17 Jul 2014, 15:45 PM
#97
Posts: 329
Rambo assault units? Like what? The only thing coming to my mind is shocks and to a degree Riflemen with BARs and smoke grenades :/
OKW - Sturmpio's and Falshim's and Obersoldaten.....
You can charge up to a squad or 3 with any of these and destroy them.
So my original point stands - where's Wher's?
Oh - that's right - they nerfed them into non existence.
And Assgrens....not even going there.
17 Jul 2014, 17:54 PM
#98
Posts: 577
Congratulations, you prove again that you have no idea what you talk about.
Sturmpios are an assault unit, but PGrens aren't? Problem is that PGrens are a stronger version of Sturmpios.
Fallschirms an Assault unit? Their weapons are abysmal on the move and they are best on long range.
Same for Obers.
Yea, you really have no idea and cause nothing but noise which drowns out good posts.
Sturmpios are an assault unit, but PGrens aren't? Problem is that PGrens are a stronger version of Sturmpios.
Fallschirms an Assault unit? Their weapons are abysmal on the move and they are best on long range.
Same for Obers.
Yea, you really have no idea and cause nothing but noise which drowns out good posts.
17 Jul 2014, 18:00 PM
#99
2 
Posts: 2181
obers are sort of rambos because you can attackmove most squads and just demolish them at long range
17 Jul 2014, 20:07 PM
#100
Posts: 127
I hate rambo units.
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