Toughts of a veteran on the airborne company

@friedrise wow have got to try that. nice find


@Milkacow I dont see where you're coming from.

They are 380. They cost me 380 manpower to deploy. no matter the reinforcement cost or anything else you;re using in your formula you used to get 336 manpower from...
they are 380 manpower. they take away 380 manpower when you deploy them ingame,not 336.

It costs an OKW player 400 to deploy obersoldaten(without a doctrine). 440 for fallschrimjagers.

I dont know what you're saying lol. unless you're suggesting a reinforce cost increase which wouldnt change the fact that paras should beat obers and falls 89% of the time,WITH the upgrade.


Paras with upgrade cost more,way more in fact,and are therefore more valuable than both of these squads in the AI department,therefore,better unit than stock unvetted obers and unupgraded unvetted falls.meaning they should win.,no matter the reinforce cost,and

Thats not overperformance,if anything obers and falls overperform against paras. paras SHOULD wipe the absoulute floor with them 1v1.

Your post kind of contradict itself. For once you say they aren't harashers but they are opportunists. Like plating a demo charge on an abandonned forward building. But isn't that harassing?

I use the term harassment infantry to signify a type of unit with abilities allowing them to circumvent and disrupt defensive positions and/or battle lines.

Eg. Spawning units in a building behind enemy lines, using smoke to cover a flank, some kind of fire up ability, stunning, fire, are all examples of harassment behavior.

The airborne can drop behind enemy lines but they'll lack the firepower to do much without an upgrade. The airdrop has its uses but I find it secondary.

The airborne are sluggers and opportunists rather. Their abilities give them DPS and staying power and they can more thoroughly take advantage of a weakness.

Eg. You cause a base rout on the enemy and an OKW medic truck is left mostly unguarded. You can drop and equip an AT gun while your Airborne plant a charge and achieve in seconds what would have taken well over a minute for an AAHT.

Eg2. You're facing a KT but manage to fire a rifle nade and land an engine crit. A P47 can now diwndle it to a sliver of health on its first pass. Whereas it would otherwise casually back up to safety.

And how can they be more adaptable than rifleman while having less abilities? They can't really keep a strong battlefield presence either with those overpriced weapons drops.

They have a suppression ability, nades without research, high DPS when upgraded, can reinforce on the field next to a radio tower and self heal with vet.
The commander as a whole is more adaptable because of airdropped weapons.

You did bring up scouting like i did. This is why i suggested some changes to the pathfinders to actually make them better at this job. That 4 man squad really is a pain to hide.

The most important use of pathfinders is to provide LOS for your troops and battlefield awareness so you can properly shift your forces.

@Milkacow ...
I dont know what you're saying lol.

What he's saying is a unit's worth isn't determined solely by its DPS. You're also paying for their ability to deploy on the field among others.

Seriously? A very expensive unit (380mp), that also costs an incredible amount of munitions (120!) to be effective is OP?

Wow. Airborne without the lmgs are completely underwhelming. Thompsons are also quite underwhelming. The lmg is all they got going for them. So i don't know. A 380 mp +120 munitions unit beating a 400 mp unit seems pretty fair to me. And the airborne don't beat obersoldaten hands down, they are slightly better. I think its fair.

I said it several times now already.

Fallschirmjäger cost 440 MP to deploy. The squad costs only 380 MP itself, 60 MP is for the opportunity cost (deploy from buildings). The upkeep (popcap) is the one for a 380 MP squad. The reinforcement is the one for a 380 MP squad. Besides that one initial 60 MP they are a 380 MP squad.
Same for Paratroopers. Those are 6 entities with each 56 MP cost, (Riflemen are 5 entities with each 56 MP cost). 6 * 56 = 336 manpower. That's the actual value of the squad. 44MP are for the opportunity cost of them dropping out of the sky.

Why I say they overperform with upgrades? Cause already without upgrades they deal similar damage to PGrens. With the upgrades they are flat out better, even though they are cheaper.
Comparing them to Grenadiers:
As usual from 0 to 35 range in 5 range steps the DPS for the whole squads
25.49 23.19 21.48 20.14 19.03 18.08 16.84 15.79 Grenadiers + LMG42
46.24 43.69 33.80 28.80 25.72 24.67 24.70 24.67 Paras + 2 * M1919A6

Grens are 7 popcap and Paras are 9 popcap. Grens have 30 reinforcement cost and 240 value, Paras have 28 reinforcement cost and 336 value. If you divide it by value that means:
0.11 0.10 0.09 0.08 0.08 0.08 0.07 0.07 DPS@range/MP LMGGren
0.14 0.13 0.10 0.09 0.08 0.07 0.07 0.07 DPS@range/MP M1919A6Paras

Looking at the values you see that the Paras do more damage than Grens per point manpower. Why is that problematic? Because the squad is also bigger. Usually a bigger squad should have a comparably lower damage (See gren vs Conscripts balance. Cons have less than half as much dmg as Grens, yet both squads are pretty even until LMGs).
So yes, they have a higher up front cost (~44 MP) and yes their upgrade is 120 munition. Yet those costs are really really small comparable to how great their performance is. The initial cost is usually only important in the beginning, while performance per cost is important mid/lategame, as a better performance per manpower will allow you to not only field but also sustain a stronger army (less MP upkeep, less popcap). Besides that value / worth of a squad is important for the speed at which they gain veterancy, but also for the speed others gain experience when fighting them. A better performance per MP means that the squad vets faster and gives the opponent less experience.


And just as a hint (since I guess this interests a few people) let's do the DPS per cost comparison again, but also with Obersoldaten:
0.11 0.10 0.09 0.08 0.08 0.08 0.07 0.07 DPS@range/MP LMGGren
0.14 0.13 0.10 0.09 0.08 0.07 0.07 0.07 DPS@range/MP M1919A6Paras
0.08 0.08 0.08 0.08 0.08 0.07 0.07 0.07 DPS@range/MP Obersoldaten

As you can see, Obers are the worst out of them. 10 popcap, 400 MP value. This is only DPS, they still can take a lot more damage than Grens, why they perform better than those usually, but still worse per cost than Paras.


I really hope that explanation helps to show you why I think paras are overperforming. It's off topic, but after putting so much time into writing it I felt it would be a bit of a waste to just sent it via private message. Please continue with the original DESIGN discussion after this post. If you want, open a balance thread on paratroopers to continue this discussion. Thank you.


Edit:
@Burts - It's a major difference between bringing a unit in line for performance with other infantry and nerfing it to make it useless. Right now they are hands down superior and allow for a strong lategame infantry presence. M1919A6 paras are not earlygame, but mid/lategame.

I said it several times now already.

Fallschirmjäger cost 440 MP to deploy. The squad costs only 380 MP itself, 60 MP is for the opportunity cost (deploy from buildings). The upkeep (popcap) is the one for a 380 MP squad. The reinforcement is the one for a 380 MP squad. Besides that one initial 60 MP they are a 380 MP squad.
Same for Paratroopers. Those are 6 entities with each 56 MP cost, (Riflemen are 5 entities with each 56 MP cost). 6 * 56 = 336 manpower. That's the actual value of the squad. 44MP are for the opportunity cost of them dropping out of the sky.

Why I say they overperform with upgrades? Cause already without upgrades they deal similar damage to PGrens. With the upgrades they are flat out better, even though they are cheaper.
Comparing them to Grenadiers:
As usual from 0 to 35 range in 5 range steps the DPS for the whole squads
25.49 23.19 21.48 20.14 19.03 18.08 16.84 15.79 Grenadiers + LMG42
46.24 43.69 33.80 28.80 25.72 24.67 24.70 24.67 Paras + 2 * M1919A6

Grens are 7 popcap and Paras are 9 popcap. Grens have 30 reinforcement cost and 240 value, Paras have 28 reinforcement cost and 336 value. If you divide it by value that means:
0.11 0.10 0.09 0.08 0.08 0.08 0.07 0.07 DPS@range/MP LMGGren
0.14 0.13 0.10 0.09 0.08 0.07 0.07 0.07 DPS@range/MP M1919A6Paras

Looking at the values you see that the Paras do more damage than Grens per point manpower. Why is that problematic? Because the squad is also bigger. Usually a bigger squad should have a comparably lower damage (See gren vs Conscripts balance. Cons have less than half as much dmg as Grens, yet both squads are pretty even until LMGs).
So yes, they have a higher up front cost (~44 MP) and yes their upgrade is 120 munition. Yet those costs are really really small comparable to how great their performance is. The initial cost is usually only important in the beginning, while performance per cost is important mid/lategame, as a better performance per manpower will allow you to not only field but also sustain a stronger army (less MP upkeep, less popcap). Besides that value / worth of a squad is important for the speed at which they gain veterancy, but also for the speed others gain experience when fighting them. A better performance per MP means that the squad vets faster and gives the opponent less experience.


And just as a hint (since I guess this interests a few people) let's do the DPS per cost comparison again, but also with Obersoldaten:
0.11 0.10 0.09 0.08 0.08 0.08 0.07 0.07 DPS@range/MP LMGGren
0.14 0.13 0.10 0.09 0.08 0.07 0.07 0.07 DPS@range/MP M1919A6Paras
0.08 0.08 0.08 0.08 0.08 0.07 0.07 0.07 DPS@range/MP Obersoldaten

As you can see, Obers are the worst out of them. 10 popcap, 400 MP value. This is only DPS, they still can take a lot more damage than Grens, why they perform better than those usually, but still worse per cost than Paras.


I really hope that explanation helps to show you why I think paras are overperforming. It's off topic, but after putting so much time into writing it I felt it would be a bit of a waste to just sent it via private message. Please continue with the original DESIGN discussion after this post. If you want, open a balance thread on paratroopers to continue this discussion. Thank you.

Well, i won't argue with a strategist, so whatever, okay, nerf paratroopers, make them useless.

I guess USA isin't supposed to have an early game advantage and infantry advantage. They are supposed to have equal infantry while having the worst armor in the game.

Wow, i never tought posting here would yeld so much discussion, quitte a good one too.

@cookiezncreem: you were right, i didn't read right and i owe you and apologie.
On the pathfinders, i don't think they should drop or teleport in buildings. I'd really see a 2 man squad with the german sniper's cloak. This way it would create it's own gameplay just to infiltrate the enemy line. A unit dedicated to scouting (i don't think anyone has that) with some interesting support abilities (check what i suggested in the main post) would be original.

Please continue with the original DESIGN discussion after this post.

Thank you.

It just baffles me why people like the airborne as quick reinforcement for your main line when there are other company that will do it in a more interesting and better way. Because it's seriously all i see people do with them. What's so bad about having an original and interesting commander that offers a play style like no other?
In the end i don't care if the paras cost more if that's what it takes to really make them interesting to play.

Edit: FestiveLongJohns suggested that the para's thompson ability becomes sprint, can't say i hate it, quitte the opposite in fact. While the current ability looks bad ass, it's really just suicide to use it.

Recon company would probably serve your needs. I hope to eventually get it too, as by 7 CP you can drop the AT gun plus 2 x paras with either SMG or LMGs at a big discount:

http://www.coh2.org/guides/19066/u.s.-forces-commanders#730

Recon company would probably serve your needs. I hope to eventually get it too, as by 7 CP you can drop the AT gun plus 2 x paras with either SMG or LMGs at a big discount:

http://www.coh2.org/guides/19066/u.s.-forces-commanders#730

I really whant it too! But i'd prefer the earlier pathfinders and to build my para army over time and launch some attacks before they start to have defences all over the map. In any case, these 2 commanders are quitte redundant.

Thing is milky,the design OP is referring to will effect the balance of the doctrine as a whole(which includes paratroopers and their upgrades). so its worth mentioning.

All im saying is,we can buff the usefullness and uniqueness without nerfing what they currently are,and without totally breaking balance.

@PTcommie You said in the original post that the pathfinders were infiltrated,which is true,but its not like they walked behind enemy lines like they do ingame.

They were always paradropped,about 30 mins before,laid beacons for the drop zone,and then rejoined their unit.
The game is missing the paradrop and rejoin part,and thats why its so awkward(and underwhelming) to try and pull off without getting caught,in any SERIOUS game.

Its nerfing what the commander SHOULD be.
They are missing a huge element of it.
it would go a long way in making the commander less underwhelming,and its far from overpowered or silly to make them paradrop in,since you can see the plane ,and
IT would just make the infiltration part a lot easier and better and crisper to pull off if you could truly land behind enemy lines,THEN hide,and then place some beacons, and actually pull off a mini Market Garden,instead of walking halfway camo'd through maps not designed for sneaking around,getting caught,getting your beacons and pathfinders destroyed,and all the while wasting TONS of micro and time trying to do it.

@MilkaCow
That was beautiful.

Edit: Just wanted to add that even though the Airborne themselves may be overperforming, the commander as a whole doesn't feel op. It's in a good place right now as is.

@PTcommie You said in the original post that the pathfinders were infiltrated,which is true,but its not like they walked behind enemy lines like they do ingame.

They were always paradropped,about 30 mins before,laid beacons for the drop zone,and then rejoined their unit.
The game is missing the paradrop and rejoin part,and thats why its so awkward(and underwhelming) to try and pull off without getting caught,in any SERIOUS game.

Its nerfing what the commander SHOULD be.
They are missing a huge element of it.
it would go a long way in making the commander less underwhelming,and its far from overpowered or silly to make them paradrop in,since you can see the plane ,and
IT would just make the infiltration part a lot easier and better and crisper to pull off if you could truly land behind enemy lines,THEN hide,and then place some beacons, and actually pull off a mini Market Garden,instead of walking halfway camo'd through maps not designed for sneaking around,getting caught,getting your beacons and pathfinders destroyed,and all the while wasting TONS of micro and time trying to do it.

Well, i fear that if they come in by air, any decent player will just know where they are and hunt them down easely due to the small size of the maps. A 2 man squad with the german's cloak and current sight range could most likely walk it off easely. Most maps have some long edgerows going trough it.

After the airborn dropped. They can still support them with their rifle and increase the view range you have. Some other nifty ability like trip flare or designated marskman could be usefull for when they regroup with the rest of the paras while not really being in the same squad.

@MilkaCow
That was beautiful.

Edit: Just wanted to add that even though the Airborne themselves may be overperforming, the commander as a whole doesn't feel op. It's in a good place right now as is.

we'll increase the price of these currently one trick poney LMG armed rifleman. Can we carry on with the discussion now?

The thing is, while on paper paras are good, in practice they are less useful than Obers, Shocks or other late-game infantry I find. The paradrop, unlike the instant spawning of the Falls, is not a big advantage since it takes some time as well as a clear landing zone. Having to sink ammo into an upgrade for a unit that also costs 380 MP upfront, as well as wait until that upgrade takes effect in order to make it truly combat effective, reduces its instant usefulness. At 3 CP, they come later than Shocks which are the closest doctrinal equivalent, in some cases too late for them to start accumulating veterancy before their peers/counters emerge. They also don't seem to get veterancy bonuses that are all that good save for the self-heal; that's, I think, the dealbreaker against Obersoldaten who get crazy vet bonuses.

I mean, don't get me wrong they're good, but I would not say they overperform at all. They also really overlap with rifles. I'd be more comfortable with giving them a choice for Recoiless Rifles, a low-damage but high-penetration infantry AT option like in vCoH. Trade it for the LMG IMO, make the Thompson go to 4 men and maybe increase its cost. So they serve clear roles; dedicated AT or close-combat assault troops. Maybe toss in an extra ability or something.

^^
I'd like to see how the 7 CP recon drop will be used once more people unlock it.

The cost savings is 140 manpower, 240 munitions.

I have been extensively running both variants of Paratroopers and they're not worth the cost. The droppable weapons are nice in theory, but the fact that they cost considerable MP upfront + require additional MP by subtracting from your active combatants in the field makes them hardly worth it, especially when you can just tech Lt. instead and get all that + better and cheaper.

I largely agree with the OP.

Edit: FestiveLongJohns suggested that the para's thompson ability becomes sprint, can't say i hate it, quitte the opposite in fact. While the current ability looks bad ass, it's really just suicide to use it.

That brings up a good point that is a bit out of place in this thread: I think all infantry needs their movement speed increased by 5-10%

I love the .30cal Airborne, they really fuck stuff up plus they deal suppression quickly without using a stationary ability (defensive stance). But the Thompson Paras are really underwhelming. The damage is, at best, decent. But they have to spend 90 munitions for it plus wait a really long time for it to upgrade. Compare that to Falls which instantly come equipped with superior weapons, for no munitions.

Also to me its pretty silly to make beacon a requirement to reinforce in the field when everyone already has an ambulance that can reinforce anywhere in friendly territory opposed to just one static point. It would be much better if Airborne could reinforce anywhere, but if there is not a beacon nearby the reinforcements can drop in to obstacles and die.

I love the .30cal Airborne, they really fuck stuff up plus they deal suppression quickly without using a stationary ability (defensive stance). But the Thompson Paras are really underwhelming. The damage is, at best, decent. But they have to spend 90 munitions for it plus wait a really long time for it to upgrade. Compare that to Falls which instantly come equipped with superior weapons, for no munitions.

Also to me its pretty silly to make beacon a requirement to reinforce in the field when everyone already has an ambulance that can reinforce anywhere in friendly territory opposed to just one static point. It would be much better if Airborne could reinforce anywhere, but if there is not a beacon nearby the reinforcements can drop in to obstacles and die.

I think AB should reinforce anywhere. But reinforcing on the field should cost more than say, the HQ.

I like airbornes having to reinforc near a beacon. It adds to the gameplay and give them the possibility to have nicer abilities since it's not as effective as straight down reinforce anywhere, plus you need another 290MP unit for that.

I like airbornes having to reinforc near a beacon. It adds to the gameplay and give them the possibility to have nicer abilities since it's not as effective as straight down reinforce anywhere, plus you need another 290MP unit for that.

Why get another 290mp unit to do that when you can do the same thing even better with an ambulance? The only time a beacon would be useful is reinforcing inside enemy lines, but if you are doing that they are just going to find and destroy it quickly. Beacon should just make the reinforcing safer, and as an added bonus maybe have a faster reinforce time next to it. That way there would actually be a reason to use one inside your own lines rather than a ambulance.