The problems with OKW.

So does anyone else feel Okw has a few perfomance issues? Mainly due to hyper specialized units. I'll try to not mention economy much as I get that's their gimmick but there is a point I want to make about it.

Past the mid game there is no reliable suppression. - Kubel works for the first 5 minutes if you are lucky. Then Guards/Zooks hit the field and its over for that piece of paper. Mg34's take 2-3 bursts just to suppress most squads, unless they walk around a corner in to it's barrel.

No reliable Garrison clear. - This is a huge issue for the Early-mid game. Infantry grenades are very random even when they land on a model/cluster of units, sometimes it duds and maybe spreads a little damage, sometimes it wipes entire squads the animation also seems to take a very long time compared to other factions grenades - that or it is buggy. The Infantry support gun does very little damage to Structures (could do with a structure damage buff?) and has to pretty much hit a model in a garrison to deal damage to it, unlike mortars that can just hit the roof and the splash will do the work for you. Stuka is expensive and comes a little late for using on a garrison.
Sturmtiger comes late and is very wasteful to use on a building.

Can easily get swarmed by enemy tanks. - Not really applicable to 1v1's but anything above that yes. - It feels very easy to get swarmed by T34/85's, Soviet call in Sherman, Jacksons and regular shermans. By the time you can field say 2 jagdpanzers, or 1 Panther + some shrecks/puppchens (not reliable vs most tanks as tanks pulp the squad before they get more than 2 shots off) the opponent can usually get 3+ tanks out, or be sat waiting for call ins to unlock then the spam begins.

Very reliant upon Pumas - Pretty much what it says, Especially in 1v1's you become very reliant upon pumas and need them to get lucky vs larger tanks - main issue being here is vs US, the Jackson our ranges anything Okw can get except the Jagdtiger (maybe Jagdpanzer too?)and when you move to engage it, there is almost always at least 1 AT gun + 2 zook squads.

Finally lack of reliable Anti-infantry tank/AoE. - The most "reliable" source of anti infantry for late game you have is the Sturmtiger, but it's a one shot thing and smart players will force you to waste it vs one squad or take its health low while you hold the shot for something better then rush in and finish it off. But remember its 1 shot every minute or so if you are lucky. Same for Stuka, but even worse, the rocket scatter/RNG damage is silly, I've seen direct strikes wipe armys and also just take a model or two, I think the last 3 rockets from it don't calculate damage properly as they never seem to do as much as the first 3. Again Field gun is a bit RNG, more reliable once it has vet, but even then half it's vet abilities are broken.

Note this is not a whine thread it is just how I feel about the game in it's current state.

Note about economy: I think they should remove buildable caches from Soviet, US and Whermacht. They do NOT need extra income - this is even more obvious in team games. Give them to OKW instead. It means you can trade off some of your manpower for extra income.

Thoughts? What are other peoples take on OKW Failures.
Thoughts? What are other peoples take on OKW Failures.

Do you know the Puma has a 45 muni Vet One ability that clears garrisons in one shot. You really need to plant mines and get a versatile fight force.

1 x SPio
1 x Schwimm
2 x Volk
1 x Puma
2 x Raken AT Gun
1 x MG34
1 x Obersoldaten
2 x Falls

Then tech to a Panther. Use the Puma Vet 1 ability to kill garrisons. Use mines to slow blobs of rifles and injure halftracks and tanks.

Suggesting that Puma Aimed Shot is a good garrison clear is pretty silly. It's true. It's unintentional though and he's talking about OKW design.

It's a bug. It will get patched out.

It also needs vet 1 to become relevant so your anti-garrison is tied to like... 8+ minutes before you can reliably deal with a garrison. Granted it instant-kills all duded in the garrison.

The Infantry support gun does very little damage to Structures (could do with a structure damage buff?) and has to pretty much hit a model in a garrison to deal damage to it, unlike mortars that can just hit the roof and the splash will do the work for you. Stuka is expensive and comes a little late for using on a garrison.

I am honestly shocked to hear you don't like the Infantry Support gun for this purpose. I find it is unparalleled in at the task of tearing down buildings. It chunks off building health and does great damage to the troops inside. It's pretty good at this task.

I find that in team games the Walking Stuka makes any building a tomb. Even this counter can take some time to pay off but it is fairly effective and safe to get early. A quick walking Stuka can sometimes work in 1v1s against Soviets. It's an option with relative safety due to the high cost of light armor for Soviets. Realistically you will not get a fast vehicle hunter for Soviets until T-70 which can hit around 200+ fuel.

The US pose more issues because they're such a double threat of light armor and superior infantry.

Very reliant upon Pumas - Pretty much what it says, Especially in 1v1's you become very reliant upon pumas and need them to get lucky vs larger tanks - main issue being here is vs US, the Jackson our ranges anything Okw can get except the Jagdtiger (maybe Jagdpanzer too?)and when you move to engage it, there is almost always at least 1 AT gun + 2 zook squads.

This is sort of true but I think the Jagdpanzer offers a good alternative. It's hard to get one in 1v1s though and the light vehicle metagame of US forces players to go Mechanized Regiment first to compete.

The Jagdpanzer has 60 range just like the Jackson. Puma has 50 and thus actually gets out-ranged. If he's bringing infantry borne AT weapons you should do the same. This is not a weakpoint of the OKW. Volks wtih Schrecks and Raketenwerfer offer good anti-tank from infantry support. Even the Infantry Support Gun offers good anti-tank when it has a direct fire situation.

Finally lack of reliable Anti-infantry tank/AoE. - The most "reliable" source of anti infantry for late game you have is the Sturmtiger, but it's a one shot thing and smart players will force you to waste it vs one squad or take its health low while you hold the shot for something better then rush in and finish it off. But remember its 1 shot every minute or so if you are lucky. Same for Stuka, but even worse, the rocket scatter/RNG damage is silly, I've seen direct strikes wipe armys and also just take a model or two, I think the last 3 rockets from it don't calculate damage properly as they never seem to do as much as the first 3. Again Field gun is a bit RNG, more reliable once it has vet, but even then half it's vet abilities are broken.

This is an issue but I feel it is supposed to be mitigated by superior infantry. Panzerfusiliers and Obersoldaten are really good against infantry for their cost. To a lesser extent Fallscrimjagers can carry you against infantry as well. Leveraging your superior infantry is always a great challenge granted.

I am interested to see the new Panzer II some more in action. I still think that it comes far too late to be particularly viable but I did get the thing in 1v1s occasionally already. It is an interesting little tank and 80 health will go a long way to help it survive. AT guns were a little too good at two-shotting it before. The Panzer II and the Walking Stuka are the best anti-infantry armor you'll get until the heaviest hitters.

I can't agree with the caches idea at all. Remove it from all sides but then give it to OKW? Ehhhhhhhh. Just remove them from all sides if you're going to go to that extent.

Suggesting that Puma Aimed Shot is a good garrison clear is pretty silly. It's true. It's unintentional though and he's talking about OKW design.

It's a bug. It will get patched out.

It also needs vet 1 to become relevant so your anti-garrison is tied to like... 8+ minutes before you can reliably deal with a garrison. Granted it instant-kills all duded in the garrison.



I am honestly shocked to hear you don't like the Infantry Support gun for this purpose. I find it is unparalleled in at the task of tearing down buildings. It chunks off building health and does great damage to the troops inside. It's pretty good at this task.

I find that in team games the Walking Stuka makes any building a tomb. Even this counter can take some time to pay off but it is fairly effective and safe to get early. A quick walking Stuka can sometimes work in 1v1s against Soviets. It's an option with relative safety due to the high cost of light armor for Soviets. Realistically you will not get a fast vehicle hunter for Soviets until T-70 which can hit around 200+ fuel.

The US pose more issues because they're such a double threat of light armor and superior infantry.



This is sort of true but I think the Jagdpanzer offers a good alternative. It's hard to get one in 1v1s though and the light vehicle metagame of US forces players to go Mechanized Regiment first to compete.

The Jagdpanzer has 60 range just like the Jackson. Puma has 50 and thus actually gets out-ranged.



This is an issue but I feel it is supposed to be mitigated by superior infantry. Panzerfusiliers and Obersoldaten are really good against infantry for their cost. To a lesser extent Fallscrimjagers can carry you against infantry as well. Leveraging your superior infantry is always a great challenge granted.

I am interested to see the new Panzer II some more in action. I still think that it comes far too late to be particularly viable but I did get the thing in 1v1s occasionally already. It is an interesting little tank and 80 health will go a long way to help it survive. AT guns were a little too good at two-shotting it before. The Panzer II and the Walking Stuka are the best anti-infantry armor you'll get until the heaviest hitters.

I can't agree with the caches idea at all. Remove it from all sides but then give it to OKW? Ehhhhhhhh. Just remove them from all sides if you're going to go to that extent.

So OKW's only reliable garrison counter will be patched out? Wow, OKW is surely fucked then.

I don't know for sure but I know that the Puma Aimed Shot is not supposed to kill an entire garrisoned building no matter what.

It must be un-intended. Who knows when/if they'll get around to fixing it though.

I don't know for sure but I know that the Puma Aimed Shot is not supposed to kill an entire garrisoned building no matter what.

It must be un-intended. Who knows when/if they'll get around to fixing it though.

Well apparently people knew and reported it since alpha, same with truck crushing. When WFA was released breakingbrad was going around crushing people with trucks, so maybe they ARE intended, since they have left it in there after all this time.

When WFA was released breakingbrad was going around crushing people with trucks, so maybe they ARE intended, since they have left it in there after all this time.

Proud to say I was crushed by a Brad or two.

Words.

Basically what Shep said, relies too much on getting Vet and it IS a bug, there is no way a Puma shot is ment to wipe a garrison for 45 muni. Also why would you EVER Get Falls when you can get Obers? Obers out class Falls in everyway and Falls bleed so much man power. The only way in which Falls are better is the fact they have some form of Smoke.

Also Panther has too low HP and too low DPS to compete with most tanks by the time it comes out, especially if you get RNG'd and it misses 2 or more shots.

More Words

Don't get me wrong, I love the Support gun, just for Anti-garrison purposes it requires a lot more manual input then others, you have to aim at walls manually unlike others which can just hit the building deal splash to troops inside and decent structure damage.

Stukas can work I just find it a huge risk throwing your first 140 fuel in to Truck + Stuka, It can work if you go a mostly Manpower army with 1/2 Puppchens. I just find the Stuka very RNG even when aimed correctly, I've seen shots hit across 6+ blob squad and only take a few models other times I've seen it wipe them entirely.

The Jagdpanzer is awesome, great frontal armour and Panther gun but with faster rate of fire, whats not to like? It can also go stealthy at Vet 1 for sneak attacks, if it ever gets to Vet 4 it's first shout out of Stealth is LETHAL.

Yeah US just seem to be a well build army with answers to pretty much any situation.

The only reason I say it's a weak point is because US can just blob at you due to lack of Suppression/AoE, do that against any other army your infantry will get slapped by something or mass suppressed.

As you said, Elite Infantry is what replaces your general armour for OKW or so it seems. But because of the expensive cost and low model count they aren't really durable enough to fill that roll properly late game.

I've played with the Luchs since the buff, it really helps a lot, it means if you run in to a captain it doesn't just immediately die.

Well the Idea behind the caches is, the other factions don't need an extra "fuel point" by building 2 caches, where as the Okw could really do with a way to catch up in income other than the convert on the mechanized truck as that really hinders you in other ways.

Well apparently people knew and reported it since alpha, same with truck crushing. When WFA was released breakingbrad was going around crushing people with trucks, so maybe they ARE intended, since they have left it in there after all this time.

Truck crushed him in a match as well. Maybe it's not fun on the receiving end ?

The weak point of OKW in my opinion is that they cannot easily attain a critical mass of AI units. They're swimming in AT options with Schrecks on Volks, Puma, Panther, Jagdpanzer4, Raketen.

Anyways, Volks don't really kill anything (although I love them as a schreck platform), Sturms don't scale into the mid/late game and OKW does not have a reliable AI tank (the puma is okay and imo the Lusch is too expensive for what it does - maybe this patch will help though). So you're left relying on Fallshirms and/or Obers, both of which are good, but it is hard to field more than one of either of those squads due to cost. Even building the flak HQ can be extremely difficult in a close 1v1, and it is so resource intensive when you basically NEED a Puma to not instantly lose to USF AA HT. (Personally I don't think teching the flak HQ is ever viable in a real 1v1, maybe on semos which is why I think Fallshirms > Obers) and I hate getting elite infantry without having the healing truck around the same time.

Even late game most of my USF matches are hard to close out because there are so many BAR Rifles running around and I only have a few units to compete with them.

The weak point of OKW in my opinion is that they cannot easily attain a critical mass of AI units. They're swimming in AT options with Schrecks on Volks, Puma, Panther, Jagdpanzer4, Raketen.

Anyways, Volks don't really kill anything (although I love them as a schreck platform), Sturms don't scale into the mid/late game and OKW does not have a reliable AI tank (the puma is okay and imo the Lusch is too expensive for what it does - maybe this patch will help though). So you're left relying on Fallshirms and/or Obers, both of which are good, but it is hard to field more than one of either of those squads due to cost. Even building the flak HQ can be extremely difficult in a close 1v1, and it is so resource intensive when you basically NEED a Puma to not instantly lose to USF AA HT. (Personally I don't think teching the flak HQ is ever viable in a real 1v1, maybe on semos which is why I think Fallshirms > Obers) and I hate getting elite infantry without having the healing truck around the same time.

Even late game most of my USF matches are hard to close out because there are so many BAR Rifles running around and I only have a few units to compete with them.

I have also found PanzerFusiliers with vet + G43 to be pretty reliable against upgraded riflemen on most maps. My biggest problem with OKW is AA spam, which, even when using a puma, is a challenge. Riflemen blobs on an early cutoff with upgraded bars have also been quite the mess to deal with.

The weak point of OKW in my opinion is that they cannot easily attain a critical mass of AI units. They're swimming in AT options with Schrecks on Volks, Puma, Panther, Jagdpanzer4, Raketen.

This is what bothers me most about the current balance of the game and high lights the difficulties as a Soviet player. Soviets have to 'manage' to defeat the OKW early. I use the word manage as StrumPio's are out performing every infantry type except for Shocks. Somehow, we are expected to take advantage of the OKW's slow fuel gathering by bringing out armor early-mid game. It is very hard for the Soviets to advance armor when it is hard countered through the Schrecks, Puma, Jagdpanzer or Raketen.

Puma/Shrecks and Raketen hard counter the T70.
The Jagdpanzer hard counters the T76 and SU85. Shrecks continue to nibble damage.

It is now mid late game and the Soviets have exhausted fuel on early light tank and a medium tank. Either one of the two new Super Tanks are coming. The Soviet's lack any sort of hard counter to them. The SU85 can't flank due to lack of speed, mobility, and weak armor. The IS2 can take it them head on but cannot over come their massive amounts of frontal armor. All counters take damage from the Raketen (including the IS2).

Its now late game. The OKW player has Super infantry on the field. All soviet infantry melt. Your T70 or T76 is one shotted by the Super tank. You can bring out the KV8 to deal with the Super infantry but it will be killed by the Super tank. You choose a second IS2 but the OKW player has dispatched their second Super tank or have brought out a Jagdpanzer.

This is the situation my clan is dealing with right now. Something has got to give in terms of OKW superiority. They do fine early game and ramp up starting mid game. Come the 20 minute mark the OKW can yield Super infantry. At the 30 minute mark the OKW can yield Super tanks. The Soviets lack counters. Non-doctrinal counters are literally impossible.

I don't have all the answers but I feel the Strumpios need to be toned down to allow Soviets time to expand the field during the early game. The T70 needs to be looked at and adjusted accordingly when compared to the Puma or PII. The SU85 needs to be looked at and adjusted accordingly when compared to the Jagdpanzer.

The only weakness I've identified in the OKW game play is if you are able to destroy one of their trucks. They will be unable to field a King Tiger but could still go for the 13CP Jagdtiger.

The only weakness I've identified in the OKW game play is if you are able to destroy one of their trucks. They will be unable to field a King Tiger but could still go for the 13CP Jagdtiger.

hey btw when your KT is in production and you will loose one of your trucks, you still get the KT?! oO

you can take out a jagtiger, with a demolition charge and a T85
he lost 70% of his health to the demo charge

MoerserKarL, I've landed a satchel charge on a King Tiger. It was a wonderful achievement. Excellent job on the demo charge.

This is what bothers me most about the current balance of the game and high lights the difficulties as a Soviet player. Soviets have to 'manage' to defeat the OKW early. I use the word manage as StrumPio's are out performing every infantry type except for Shocks.

Wrong. Soviets don't have to defeat okw early. Here is your mistake. You expect to treat OKW like you would treat OStheer, and it's wrong. You don't need to be that desperate tio win early game because it's verry difficult, but rather group you units, expect to have a good mixture of troops (maxims must be there) and then attack. Do you use mines?!

Somehow, we are expected to take advantage of the OKW's slow fuel gathering by bringing out armor early-mid game.

Yes, you are.

It is very hard for the Soviets to advance armor when it is hard countered through the Schrecks, Puma, Jagdpanzer or Raketen.
Puma/Shrecks and Raketen hard counter the T70.
The Jagdpanzer hard counters the T76 and SU85. Shrecks continue to nibble damage.

Do you use mortars and infantry? Or you just storm with your '76s and expect to win every confrontation?

It is now mid late game and the Soviets have exhausted fuel on early light tank and a medium tank. Either one of the two new Super Tanks are coming. The Soviet's lack any sort of hard counter to them. The SU85 can't flank due to lack of speed, mobility, and weak armor. The IS2 can take it them head on but cannot over come their massive amounts of frontal armor. All counters take damage from the Raketen (including the IS2).

Wrong again. Why would you even build an early light tank? Do you realy need it? Super tanks coming in mid-late game? Lol. What super-tanks? Panther? That's a medium. JagdTiger? Please.... KT? I don't even know how it looks....
And all these even in games when I held both fuel points.
OKW HAS NO FUEL TO STORM YOU WITH SUPER TANKS. Has only the fuel quantity (if he plays well) to bring one or two Panthers at most or ONE JagdTiger with no other armor support to stomp your advance but not to really be aggressive.
If OKW awaits for heavy tanks and preserve fuel for them, you should be able to storm it with your armor because it will not afford to build tanks on its own to counter you. There will be schrecks, there will be raketenwerfer. And maybe a PUMA. That's all, nothing some T34s and ZIS guns cannot handle.

Its now late game. The OKW player has Super infantry on the field. All soviet infantry melt. Your T70 or T76 is one shotted by the Super tank. You can bring out the KV8 to deal with the Super infantry but it will be killed by the Super tank. You choose a second IS2 but the OKW player has dispatched their second Super tank or have brought out a Jagdpanzer.

That supertank - if it appears - can be pushed back with your ZIS wall. KV8 will tear to shreds all that OKW EXPENSIVE "super-infantry" and it will come back alive. Yes, OKW late infantry is stronger than the soviet one, but it can be dealt with, using combined arms and some cheese units like KV8.

This is the situation my clan is dealing with right now. Something has got to give in terms of OKW superiority. They do fine early game and ramp up starting mid game. Come the 20 minute mark the OKW can yield Super infantry. At the 30 minute mark the OKW can yield Super tanks. The Soviets lack counters. Non-doctrinal counters are literally impossible.

I don't have all the answers but I feel the Strumpios need to be toned down to allow Soviets time to expand the field during the early game. The T70 needs to be looked at and adjusted accordingly when compared to the Puma or PII. The SU85 needs to be looked at and adjusted accordingly when compared to the Jagdpanzer.

The only weakness I've identified in the OKW game play is if you are able to destroy one of their trucks. They will be unable to field a King Tiger but could still go for the 13CP Jagdtiger.

I think your clan is to used to play agressively with soviets and throw with Ostherr against the walls from startgame. This is not the way you should play against OKW at all. Against former Ostherr (currently wehrmacht) you can and must play verry agressively since beginning because they have a normal fuel income and they can kick your ass in middle game through their tanks and versatile units if you don't stomp them accordingly. Against OKW you don't need to play that agressively and try to own them from beginning. This is a mistake, theyr infantry is to strong. You have to keep one fuel point and half of territory. And resources system will work in your favor, not in OKW's favor. OKW is obliged to be as agressive as it manages. You will stomp it thorugh maxims, dshks, mines, Zis, Cons, and mortars. Upgrade the AT grenade pretty early.

This is the way you should play against OKW. Moderate but firm. And in late game the advantage will be yours.

What's the fuel income after clicking the muni to fuel button? It says 50% less muni, and for every 4 muni lost 1 fuel is gained.

Didnt read the whole thread, but.. I dont build pumas in 1v1, you dont NEED to start with T3.


You can play only using T2, this saves fuel and allows an early Jadgtiger, combine with one shrek and one Rocket AT... this is way better than pumas IMO.


Yeah they dont have loads of suppression, unless you go Luftwaffe... but they have high DPS instead.. just like PE.


The garrison issue has been bothering me though! Its causing me problems early game.

OKW needs mg34 as a standard buildable unit, not as a commander spawn. Or at least put it in more commanders. Right now its the only option to fight vs blobs, and there is only one commander that comes with this unit. Like we have much choice

This is what bothers me most about the current balance of the game and high lights the difficulties as a Soviet player. Soviets have to 'manage' to defeat the OKW early. I use the word manage as StrumPio's are out performing every infantry type except for Shocks. Somehow, we are expected to take advantage of the OKW's slow fuel gathering by bringing out armor early-mid game. It is very hard for the Soviets to advance armor when it is hard countered through the Schrecks, Puma, Jagdpanzer or Raketen.

Puma/Shrecks and Raketen hard counter the T70.
The Jagdpanzer hard counters the T76 and SU85. Shrecks continue to nibble damage.

It is now mid late game and the Soviets have exhausted fuel on early light tank and a medium tank. Either one of the two new Super Tanks are coming. The Soviet's lack any sort of hard counter to them. The SU85 can't flank due to lack of speed, mobility, and weak armor. The IS2 can take it them head on but cannot over come their massive amounts of frontal armor. All counters take damage from the Raketen (including the IS2).

Its now late game. The OKW player has Super infantry on the field. All soviet infantry melt. Your T70 or T76 is one shotted by the Super tank. You can bring out the KV8 to deal with the Super infantry but it will be killed by the Super tank. You choose a second IS2 but the OKW player has dispatched their second Super tank or have brought out a Jagdpanzer.

This is the situation my clan is dealing with right now. Something has got to give in terms of OKW superiority. They do fine early game and ramp up starting mid game. Come the 20 minute mark the OKW can yield Super infantry. At the 30 minute mark the OKW can yield Super tanks. The Soviets lack counters. Non-doctrinal counters are literally impossible.

I don't have all the answers but I feel the Strumpios need to be toned down to allow Soviets time to expand the field during the early game. The T70 needs to be looked at and adjusted accordingly when compared to the Puma or PII. The SU85 needs to be looked at and adjusted accordingly when compared to the Jagdpanzer.

The only weakness I've identified in the OKW game play is if you are able to destroy one of their trucks. They will be unable to field a King Tiger but could still go for the 13CP Jagdtiger.

Is this directed to specifically 1v1, 2v2, or both? Because I have found 1v1 to be quite easy as the Soviets vs OKW(as well as 2v2), maxims, snipers, mass cons, all counter OKW well. Teching to early tanks is an issue ofc, I simply go for an AT gun or two to counter the puma or w/e tank the OKW can afford(You must remember OKW are actually fuel sapped for the most part unless you give him more than 65% of the map, so taking out any armor that has a cost similar to the puma or higher will severely hurt the OKW's ability to bring out more mobile at/anti-inf vehicles). I then proceed to either go KV-8 into IS-2 or dbl 85s, though I find dbl 85s aren't really needed to combat vehicles vs OKW, as they are usually more infantry reliant, so KV-8 is perfect for the occasion.

VonIvan; 3v3 and 4v4. Yes, the blacksheep of game modes. 2v2 is still a struggle but what I described above is accurate for the larger game modes.