M3 + maxim + Sniper spam 2v2 - Early game

who says i need molo and at nades? and at guns can easily deal with any p4

If you start with T1, you need AT nades or you'll be obliterated by AC if you want to play without guards.
If you start with T2, you need molos for clearing buildings as you obviously won't have flamer M3.

And no, AT guns can't easily deal with P4s, not without numbers, not without AT nades snaring them for their 50% longer then PaK reload to give effect and without guards to hold it in place.

Its not even theorycrafting here, its plain logic if you have any idea on how sov units work(which in your case might be a questionable ability).

If you start with T1, you need AT nades or you'll be obliterated by AC if you want to play without guards.
If you start with T2, you need molos for clearing buildings as you obviously won't have flamer M3.

And no, AT guns can't easily deal with P4s, not without numbers, not without AT nades snaring them for their 50% longer then PaK reload to give effect and without guards to hold it in place.

Its not even theorycrafting here, its plain logic if you have any idea on how sov units work(which in your case might be a questionable ability).

You only need 40 fuel to get the other tier . that's 4 min into the game. sometime people have not even engaged the opponent on larger maps. if he goes tier 2 and buy even one vehicle then its already pretty much even. Its a small delay to get my t-34 out but this gains me great benefits early and late game. as i generally use a combination of maxims penals and guards.

If you start with T1, you need AT nades or you'll be obliterated by AC if you want to play without guards.

If I start with T1, and my opponent goes for a 222, I can just wait until he is out of position and bum rush the 222 with two M3s, or lure him into a mine, or just wait for a fast quad at 8 minutes. 222 is not that strong against M3s right now, two will guaranteed win against it, and even a single one will win if firing at the rear of the 222. Guards are really not required and I tend to feel that playing without them can be far more annoying for your opponent with T1 starts because then you don't have to waste 75 munitions on their DP upgrades and can get stuff like Doucheguns to punish your opponent keeping his units together (and then your M3s punish him for spreading out again)

I don't see the point of getting atnades (or molotovs) if you're not playing with more than 3 conscripts, which you are unlikely to be doing with T1 strats.

Clowncar. Persistent thorn in the side of balance since forever.

Its been discussed many hundreds of times but still somehow manages to elude a unilateral solution.
Sort of quite an achievement really, and paradoxically speaks in favor of it actually being quite balanced, despite something smelling funny about it. Just can never quite seem to put your finger on what is causing it.

I think perhaps indirectly, one cause may be the inbuilt delay on Faust/ATNade effects on especially light vehicles with high speeds. Often, by the time the projectile hits, the vehicle is already well in retreat, and continues to roll at high speed despite being hit.

Perhaps change Faust/ATNades hit to cause an immediate de-acceleration on the vehicles? So it sort of "stops dead in its tracks" when hit, and has to reaccelerate at the reduced speed after the hit, from 0.
Sort of doesnt reflect the inertia it has IRL, but then again neither does Fausts/ATNades magically hitting their targets though they move out of range during the cast timers.

Result would make it easier to follow up on the light vehicle to finish it off, increasing their risk of close and open maneuvers a bit.

Clowncar. Persistent thorn in the side of balance since forever.

Its been discussed many hundreds of times but still somehow manages to elude a unilateral solution.
Sort of quite an achievement really, and paradoxically speaks in favor of it actually being quite balanced, despite something smelling funny about it. Just can never quite seem to put your finger on what is causing it.

Actually I think thats easy: the clowncar(s) provides its user one of two effects: 1 : The opportunity to get easy squad wipes and decide the game in his favour in the first couple of minutes, or 2: forcing the German player into full damage control mode, grouping all his squads and relinquishing the map, while on the other hand losing the (a) car (which you wont lose given decent micro) is not much off an offset, risk wise.

LeYawn, yes that is a fair description of what it does.
But doesnt answer how to tweak it so that the little something stinky about it is brought inline.

I think Relics changes have been good overall, such as the 50%attrition chance on destruction, and the stat relation especially to its distaff cousin, the 221 (though the 50cal may still need just a small touch). Costs have also been shaved in both directions in different patches. Yet still somehow somekind of niggling sense of a small imbalance persists about the whole affair.

What do you think of my suggestion to an immediate stop effect from Faust/ATNade that I editted into my post above? Would increase risk of maneuver/positioning a bit, and since the change works vs both 221 and M3, the advantage would be shared fairly by both factions.

I think that would certainly help. But it won't seriously address for instance the attractivity of clown-car spam in 1v1. Not talking about solitary M3s here but certain players who build up a critical mass of them and fairly inevitably bumrush you come late early game - a strat that is very, very difficult to defend against as I reckon even most top players will attest to.

Yes, I see what you mean. And the buildtime on M3s is remarkably fast. Thats ok though. I think its good that build times are fixed to cost at a constant rate.

What Im trying to suggest, is a lateral solution that has the same rough benefit for both factions, that does not change the stats of the units involved to a possible imbalance result, that instead "fixes" an element of what is the universal counter to light vehicles (ie: the Faust/ATNade) in that phase of the game which is a result of the interplay of what Faust/ATNade actually do to their targets.

If the light vehicles are stopped in their tracks to speed 0 by the hit, it helps offset the game internal (slightl irrational) effect of light vehicles rolling away at high speed from the point where they are hit, to where they are well beyond infantry reach.

Result? For the opponent, he can better catch up to the vehicle with his infantry to finish it off with small arms or another Faust/ATNade. I think the problem might be that even in a bumrush or M3 spam situation, it becomes even more important to maximise the cost efdiciency and expenditure of every single Faust. If the M3 can pull out, the efficiency of the Faust is basically massively wasted, as compared to if the Gren could still catch up and finish off with small arms.

This increases the relative risk for light vehicles, and makes it more important to keep range and/or somekind of blocking cover nearby to pull behind after the Faust/ATNade goes off.

TLDR: Make Faust/ATNade cause a "STOP! HAMMERTIME!" immediate halt on the light vehicle (cant speak to heavier vehicles, but I think their behavior is ok atm, due to some relation of acceleration) so that it stops dead in its tracks when hit, rather than rolling away at speed. This means infantry can catch up and continue to capitalise small arms or another Faust/ATNade on it to finish it off.

See what I mean?

Yes, I see what you mean. And the buildtime on M3s is remarkably fast. Thats ok though. I think its good that build times are fixed to cost at a constant rate.

What Im trying to suggest, is a lateral solution that has the same rough benefit for both factions, that does not change the stats of the units involved to a possible imbalance result, that instead "fixes" an element of what is the universal counter to light vehicles (ie: the Faust/ATNade) in that phase of the game which is a result of the interplay of what Faust/ATNade actually do to their targets.

If the light vehicles are stopped in their tracks to speed 0 by the hit, it helps offset the game internal (slightl irrational) effect of light vehicles rolling away at high speed from the point where they are hit, to where they are well beyond infantry reach.

Result? For the opponent, he can better catch up to the vehicle with his infantry to finish it off with small arms or another Faust/ATNade. I think the problem might be that even in a bumrush or M3 spam situation, it becomes even more important to maximise the cost efdiciency and expenditure of every single Faust. If the M3 can pull out, the efficiency of the Faust is basically massively wasted, as compared to if the Gren could still catch up and finish off with small arms.


This increases the relative risk for light vehicles, and makes it more important to keep range and/or somekind of blocking cover nearby to pull behind after the Faust/ATNade goes off.

TLDR: Make Faust/ATNade cause a "STOP! HAMMERTIME!" immediate halt on the light vehicle (cant speak to heavier vehicles, but I think their behavior is ok atm, due to some relation of acceleration) so that it stops dead in its tracks when hit, rather than rolling away at speed. This means infantry can catch up and continue to capitalise small arms or another Faust/ATNade on it to finish it off.

See what I mean?

Stopping won't hurt the squad inside which will just pop out and will likely win the engagement versuse ur depleted squad.I think m3 gun needs less damage,so its not as effective at killing models and even does good dmg to ACar and the faust needs to kill members inside the scout car to add a dimension of counter Mp bleed on the soviet side when using this strat and a risk-reward factor,so he can't just chareg in knowing squad will pop out with impunity after dealing dmg.

First one should ensure even with good micro its not too strong.second measure should ensure spamming it it costly.

Or other response could be lowering german t1 costs hevaily to make fast armoured car a possibility,but this would bring t2 units quite early on the battlefield which may have unforeseen effects on the meta.

mg42 and maxim, someone look up the numbers
but traverse time = redeploy time of the maxim so both get an equal chance against a flank from 2 sides
would it help to micro the mg42 to switch targets as soon as 1 squad is pinned, just like you need to micro a maxim redeploy when the first squad is pinned?

about the m3 I know you all like to call it OP when it is in a situation that greatly favors the m3 (like lots of units are OP when the situation is in their favor)

situation
my first unit is m3
I chase of his first pio squad with my engineers+M3 (fair enough 2vs1)
I chase of his MG42 that was in the back (fair enough, lone mg vs m3+engineer)
his grenadiers were somewhere else capping and met met second engineersquad with flamers
then while my M3+engineer is capping the zone I just cleared
he reinforced his pios and built 2 more
i'm capping the second point, looking somewhere else on the map and before you know, 3 piosquads ontop of my M3 , lost it, insane closeup dmg.

its all situational, if he would have kept grenadier upfront and pulled it back to mg42 when he heard my M3 in the fogofwar I wouldn't even have been able to chase him off.

if I wouldn't have been so cocky after chasing his units of I wouldn't have been jumped by 3 piosquads

anyways, I could care less what happens to the M3 its not my playstyle T1+guards

Bogeuh, no offence, but thats a micro (or rather attention) failure you're describing here. With an early M3, you should only ever give Amove orders - that helps with unpleasant d'oh moments like driving straight into an Assgren squad and losing it - nothing like that ever happened to me of course, dont drink and play and such. As for 42 vs Maxim, Cons can hurrah, do better damage close up, and unless the RNG gods really fuck you over, Mollis force a reposition, while if you eat a riflenade with the Maxim you don't have to move since there is no continuous damage. I personally find it much easier to contain Grens with Maxims then stopping Cons with Mg42 in the early game. In the late game, thats admittedly different.

Austerlitz: Yes, thats because the M3 and unit inside are two independant units which both cost their full cost on their own.

It is secondary, and irrelevant, to my suggestion, that the unit pops out. Thatnis fine, well done to the Sov player for microing. The point is forcing that poput in the first place as a result of the vehicle being stopped immediately on the Faust hit, and hence two effects a) the unit inside loses its cover bonus when outside b) more importantly, the chance to finish the M3 off that younactually spent the Munition in Fausts to engage.

This is primarily about increasing the cost efficiency of Faust in conjunction with applying small arms or further Fausts to a stopped vehicle for purposes of destroying it, rather than it rolling out of range due to the current mechanics.

If the M3 can simplynroll well out of range as it does now, it means the Faust expenditure and force commitment (as thenGrens are suffering attrition at agreater rate than the unit in the M3 this whole time) is quite often wasted. It forces off the M3, yes, but often its Engi crew can degarrison and repair it right behind a nearby cover while the Grens catch up. If it is stopped dead in its tracks until it reaccelerates at its lower engine dmged rate, the Grens can catch up and apply small arms or another Faust more reasonably.

I understand the repercussions of my suggestion can be difficult to express or imagine, but its mostly about simply stopping the M3 from rolling so far out of range after the Faust hit, that the Grens have little chance to capitalise on the Faust. If it stops to zero speed when hit, this is mitigated to Osts benefit, but can be prevented by Sov player simply by staying generally at a further range or near a corner of cover to fall back behind. It increases the risk of M3 maneuvering, but only for being too close (ie: overextending). As it is at this time, the M3 simply olls out of range from the finishing blows, even when very close, such as it typically now all too often is with Flamer Engies onboard.

After my proposed change, it wont roll anywhere. If it gets hit, it STOPS, and its retreat is much slower due to having to re-accelerate at the engine dmg rate, and has therefore has to be very careful beforehand about how close it gets in the first place. In balance, this is fairly adjusted to Sov in regards to 221 and FHT, as those two will lose mobility by concretely stopping when hit, thereby allowing small arms/ATNades to finish it off if close enough (in which case, Sov also has the Oorah to close that gap for a final ATNade to finish the deal for sure).

and for all the below, im' talking early game (as if m3's window of opportunity is that long and even shorter the larger the gamesize due to speed of resource income/teching)

oh yeh it is a micro issue, its also a weakness then since you need to make a choice
- cap safe point with 2 units(garrisoned m3) or keep it in the back as protection for your capping units , so that's atleast 3 units involved to cap a point then
which makes the advice of keep your units together if the opponent uses M3 a fair tradeoff in capping power

well about the mg's theres other aspects involved
on initial contact when you have no idea where the mg is placed
since mg42 covers a larger area than maxim
you have a much higher chance of cacthing infantry than with maxim, failure to reposition after its been detected or not using a scout infront is what kills mg's.
but yeh i like the maxim's flexibility, on the other hand I like the german mortar and pak more than their counterparts etc etc

though vet1 mortar ability for soviets can be great, so Is zis barrage

Nah, it just doesnt work this way. Watch the current SNF stream for a more eloquent illustration that I could ever provide.

LeYawn, its unclear to whom your last post is.

Who is it addressed to?

The best solution to the M3 issue is to turn the unit into a dedicated scouting unit, with less firepower and larger LOS, like the jeep. It would be even better if the M3 could have bonuses vs snipers, but they got rid of the target tables in COH2, so probably not possible. You should still be able to garrison it to pull off riskier flanks but it should not have the firepower it has. The flamer + gun DPS is just too high.

In turn the Ostheer sniper could get well-deserved health or armor buffs to increase its survivability.

Yeah funny when cons is actually using to scout and scout car is used to kill stuff when from design it should be the reversed, or just changed the name to War Trukk and paint it red with the word "Dakka" on the sides.

Austerlitz: Yes, thats because the M3 and unit inside are two independant units which both cost their full cost on their own.

It is secondary, and irrelevant, to my suggestion, that the unit pops out. Thatnis fine, well done to the Sov player for microing. The point is forcing that poput in the first place as a result of the vehicle being stopped immediately on the Faust hit, and hence two effects a) the unit inside loses its cover bonus when outside b) more importantly, the chance to finish the M3 off that younactually spent the Munition in Fausts to engage.

This is primarily about increasing the cost efficiency of Faust in conjunction with applying small arms or further Fausts to a stopped vehicle for purposes of destroying it, rather than it rolling out of range due to the current mechanics.

If the M3 can simplynroll well out of range as it does now, it means the Faust expenditure and force commitment (as thenGrens are suffering attrition at agreater rate than the unit in the M3 this whole time) is quite often wasted. It forces off the M3, yes, but often its Engi crew can degarrison and repair it right behind a nearby cover while the Grens catch up. If it is stopped dead in its tracks until it reaccelerates at its lower engine dmged rate, the Grens can catch up and apply small arms or another Faust more reasonably.


I understand the repercussions of my suggestion can be difficult to express or imagine, but its mostly about simply stopping the M3 from rolling so far out of range after the Faust hit, that the Grens have little chance to capitalise on the Faust. If it stops to zero speed when hit, this is mitigated to Osts benefit, but can be prevented by Sov player simply by staying generally at a further range or near a corner of cover to fall back behind. It increases the risk of M3 maneuvering, but only for being too close (ie: overextending). As it is at this time, the M3 simply olls out of range from the finishing blows, even when very close, such as it typically now all too often is with Flamer Engies onboard.

After my proposed change, it wont roll anywhere. If it gets hit, it STOPS, and its retreat is much slower due to having to re-accelerate at the engine dmg rate, and has therefore has to be very careful beforehand about how close it gets in the first place. In balance, this is fairly adjusted to Sov in regards to 221 and FHT, as those two will lose mobility by concretely stopping when hit, thereby allowing small arms/ATNades to finish it off if close enough (in which case, Sov also has the Oorah to close that gap for a final ATNade to finish the deal for sure).

Just make Faust shock the M3 crew when hit is enough for the balance.

Cannonade, I was answering to Bogeuh.

The best solution to the M3 issue is to turn the unit into a dedicated scouting unit, with less firepower and larger LOS, like the jeep. It would be even better if the M3 could have bonuses vs snipers, but they got rid of the target tables in COH2, so probably not possible. You should still be able to garrison it to pull off riskier flanks but it should not have the firepower it has. The flamer + gun DPS is just too high.

In turn the Ostheer sniper could get well-deserved health or armor buffs to increase its survivability.

+1, good ideas, let's hope next week's patch will include some of them.