What is your opinion on the current meta?

Jump back to quoted post9 Jun 2014, 18:34 PMIpKaiFung

I also agree that this is a bad poll because the metagame is developed by the players, how varied it can become depends on the map pool and the tools available at the players disposal.

With the amount of viable strats the soviets have at their disposal I think some of the accusations of boring meta are down to players not experimenting enough.

Jump back to quoted post9 Jun 2014, 18:36 PMbraciszek

People could, but theyd lose. And no one wants to lose, so meta isnt made voluntarily. People are limited to their tools and how their tools are balanced. Balance dictates people to win with what little they have, so meta is dictated by the variety in the game. Meta is stale atm for most people.

Jump back to quoted post9 Jun 2014, 18:05 PMMr. Someguy

Meta is awful, Soviet T1 counters German T1 pretty effectively. Soviet Meta is M3 / Sniper / Maxim spam into T-34/85's. German Meta is Grenadier Spam into T2 Scout Car and then to Tiger or StuGs.

Potential causes:

German T1:
SU T1 counters most of OH T1 effectively. MG's, Mortars, and Snipers are obvious targets for M3's and SU Snipers, which leaves just Grenadiers, leading to Grenadier spam. Against SU T2 it's more viable, but OH MG's are still extremely immobile yet are expected to constantly reposition and reface themselves. Sniper has very low health and is threatened by everything under the sun.

German T2:
Panzergrenadiers don't perform in any defined role, not as Attackers (low durability) or Flankers (low speed). PG's high cost are also off-putting with a 40MP reinforce cost, the highest in the game. Flame Half-Track upgrade comes too late and is too big an investment when Tanks are entering the field.

German T3:
Panzer IV's accuracy is too low, making it awful against Infantry and even miss vs Tanks. Ostwind is okay I guess, still no T-70/Quad/KV-8. Often skipped in favour of Tiger Tanks due to T3's high cost, and the high durability and power of a single Tiger being worth more than 2 Panzer IV's while also being much cheaper.

German T4:
Panther is seldom used now due to it's high cost, when a Tiger and a StuG can do the same job and more for much much cheaper. Panzerwerfer is in an odd spot, don't like 'em being useless, but didn't like the days when the guy with the most panzerwerfers / katyushas won the game.

Soviet T1:
M3 Scout Cars are spammable, durable (against OH T1 units), and often carry Flamer Engineers for easy repairs. The only counter is the Panzerfaust, which has limited range, only does half health damage, and does not slow them very much, and drains munitions. SU Snipers in pairs can force-retreat any OH unit except Osttruppen, and effectively nullify any support unit due to that.

Soviet T2:
Maxim Guns are highly mobile with a very short setup time and a large crew. Like many 'spammable' SU units, alone they are vulnerable, but in groups they are extremely difficult to deal with. Crew is cheap and replaceable, and a vigilant player can reface the gun in 2 seconds to cover it's own flank. No other problems.

Soviet T3:
T-70 has a limited window of effectiveness before StuG's or Panzer IV's hit the field, otherwise is a great unit. No other issue.

Soviet T4:
SU-85's mobility penalty for 'zoom' is no longer necessary imo. SU-76 is seldom used due to it's low health and armour, although it is not a bad unit, but requires lots of support or babysitting. Katyusha suffers the same problems as the Panzerwerfer.

Overall:
Call-in tanks are more accessible than T3/T4 for both factions, although this seems to be a much bigger deal on the Germans. Soviets can beat a Tiger with T2/T3 combo or T4, but dual T-34/85's is very difficult to fight with OH T3 and T4 is seldom used due to pricing.

Oh dear I've written a small essay.

Jump back to quoted post9 Jun 2014, 18:34 PMIpKaiFung

I also agree that this is a bad poll because the metagame is developed by the players, how varied it can become depends on the map pool and the tools available at the players disposal.

With the amount of viable strats the soviets have at their disposal I think some of the accusations of boring meta are down to players not experimenting enough.

Jump back to quoted post9 Jun 2014, 18:34 PMIpKaiFung

With the amount of viable strats the soviets have at their disposal I think some of the accusations of boring meta are down to players not experimenting enough.

Jump back to quoted post9 Jun 2014, 18:05 PMMr. Someguy

Meta is awful, Soviet T1 counters German T1 pretty effectively. Soviet Meta is M3 / Sniper / Maxim spam into T-34/85's. German Meta is Grenadier Spam into T2 Scout Car and then to Tiger or StuGs.

Potential causes:

German T1:
SU T1 counters most of OH T1 effectively. MG's, Mortars, and Snipers are obvious targets for M3's and SU Snipers, which leaves just Grenadiers, leading to Grenadier spam. Against SU T2 it's more viable, but OH MG's are still extremely immobile yet are expected to constantly reposition and reface themselves. Sniper has very low health and is threatened by everything under the sun.

German T2:
Panzergrenadiers don't perform in any defined role, not as Attackers (low durability) or Flankers (low speed). PG's high cost are also off-putting with a 40MP reinforce cost, the highest in the game. Flame Half-Track upgrade comes too late and is too big an investment when Tanks are entering the field.

German T3:
Panzer IV's accuracy is too low, making it awful against Infantry and even miss vs Tanks. Ostwind is okay I guess, still no T-70/Quad/KV-8. Often skipped in favour of Tiger Tanks due to T3's high cost, and the high durability and power of a single Tiger being worth more than 2 Panzer IV's while also being much cheaper.

German T4:
Panther is seldom used now due to it's high cost, when a Tiger and a StuG can do the same job and more for much much cheaper. Panzerwerfer is in an odd spot, don't like 'em being useless, but didn't like the days when the guy with the most panzerwerfers / katyushas won the game.

Soviet T1:
M3 Scout Cars are spammable, durable (against OH T1 units), and often carry Flamer Engineers for easy repairs. The only counter is the Panzerfaust, which has limited range, only does half health damage, and does not slow them very much, and drains munitions. SU Snipers in pairs can force-retreat any OH unit except Osttruppen, and effectively nullify any support unit due to that.

Soviet T2:
Maxim Guns are highly mobile with a very short setup time and a large crew. Like many 'spammable' SU units, alone they are vulnerable, but in groups they are extremely difficult to deal with. Crew is cheap and replaceable, and a vigilant player can reface the gun in 2 seconds to cover it's own flank. No other problems.

Soviet T3:
T-70 has a limited window of effectiveness before StuG's or Panzer IV's hit the field, otherwise is a great unit. No other issue.

Soviet T4:
SU-85's mobility penalty for 'zoom' is no longer necessary imo. SU-76 is seldom used due to it's low health and armour, although it is not a bad unit, but requires lots of support or babysitting. Katyusha suffers the same problems as the Panzerwerfer.

Overall:
Call-in tanks are more accessible than T3/T4 for both factions, although this seems to be a much bigger deal on the Germans. Soviets can beat a Tiger with T2/T3 combo or T4, but dual T-34/85's is very difficult to fight with OH T3 and T4 is seldom used due to pricing.

Oh dear I've written a small essay.

Jump back to quoted post10 Jun 2014, 00:38 AMTwister

I haven't seen anyone in many months try to go for multiple MGs as Germans for example. I do it a lot and it works very well, but you have to change your habits a little to make it work, play the map differently.

Jump back to quoted post10 Jun 2014, 02:28 AMskemshead

The best outcome would be to reintroduce popcap based on sectors held thus forcing players to make real decisions about unit compositions and not just pushing out more units as soon as manpower available. The fact that some sov players are allowed to build defensive walls and wait for callins is just ridiculous.

Jump back to quoted post10 Jun 2014, 02:28 AMskemshead

Couldn,t agree more...

I stopped playing sov because every game i faced grenspam.

I have now stopped playing ost because of m3 spam, sov weapon team spam and t85 spam / ISU. I occasionally get an opponent who does not play latest op strats and those games are both satisfying and enjoyable.

Soviets when played at their cheesiest are a broken frustrating faction that does not reward ost for being better opponent. The best outcome would be to reintroduce popcap based on sectors held thus forcing players to make real decisions about unit compositions and not just pushing out more units as soon as manpower available. The fact that some sov players are allowed to build defensive walls and wait for callins is just ridiculous.

As it stands sov builds basically define how ost plays. Fix this so ost have other viable builds and you will see more evolution to metagame.

Jump back to quoted post9 Jun 2014, 12:07 PMAmiPolizeiFunk

"metagame" does not equal "balance." I don't understand who you think should "tweak" the metagame... Relic? Relic tweaks balance. Players develop the metagame.

Jump back to quoted post9 Jun 2014, 18:34 PMIpKaiFung

I also agree that this is a bad poll because the metagame is developed by the players, how varied it can become depends on the map pool and the tools available at the players disposal.

With the amount of viable strats the soviets have at their disposal I think some of the accusations of boring meta are down to players not experimenting enough.

Players (most time the best and most experienced players) develop the metagame, correct. While doing so they tend to find the most efficient and easy way to beat there opponents because they want to win. So they check out the amount of options the game offers and lean into the options which support this objective at best.

Jump back to quoted post10 Jun 2014, 18:17 PMelchino7

*snip*

Jump back to quoted post9 Jun 2014, 18:05 PMMr. Someguy

Meta is awful, Soviet T1 counters German T1 pretty effectively. Soviet Meta is M3 / Sniper / Maxim spam into T-34/85's. German Meta is Grenadier Spam into T2 Scout Car and then to Tiger or StuGs.

Potential causes:

German T1:
SU T1 counters most of OH T1 effectively. MG's, Mortars, and Snipers are obvious targets for M3's and SU Snipers, which leaves just Grenadiers, leading to Grenadier spam. Against SU T2 it's more viable, but OH MG's are still extremely immobile yet are expected to constantly reposition and reface themselves. Sniper has very low health and is threatened by everything under the sun.

German T2:
Panzergrenadiers don't perform in any defined role, not as Attackers (low durability) or Flankers (low speed). PG's high cost are also off-putting with a 40MP reinforce cost, the highest in the game. Flame Half-Track upgrade comes too late and is too big an investment when Tanks are entering the field.

German T3:
Panzer IV's accuracy is too low, making it awful against Infantry and even miss vs Tanks. Ostwind is okay I guess, still no T-70/Quad/KV-8. Often skipped in favour of Tiger Tanks due to T3's high cost, and the high durability and power of a single Tiger being worth more than 2 Panzer IV's while also being much cheaper.

German T4:
Panther is seldom used now due to it's high cost, when a Tiger and a StuG can do the same job and more for much much cheaper. Panzerwerfer is in an odd spot, don't like 'em being useless, but didn't like the days when the guy with the most panzerwerfers / katyushas won the game.

Soviet T1:
M3 Scout Cars are spammable, durable (against OH T1 units), and often carry Flamer Engineers for easy repairs. The only counter is the Panzerfaust, which has limited range, only does half health damage, and does not slow them very much, and drains munitions. SU Snipers in pairs can force-retreat any OH unit except Osttruppen, and effectively nullify any support unit due to that.

Soviet T2:
Maxim Guns are highly mobile with a very short setup time and a large crew. Like many 'spammable' SU units, alone they are vulnerable, but in groups they are extremely difficult to deal with. Crew is cheap and replaceable, and a vigilant player can reface the gun in 2 seconds to cover it's own flank. No other problems.

Soviet T3:
T-70 has a limited window of effectiveness before StuG's or Panzer IV's hit the field, otherwise is a great unit. No other issue.

Soviet T4:
SU-85's mobility penalty for 'zoom' is no longer necessary imo. SU-76 is seldom used due to it's low health and armour, although it is not a bad unit, but requires lots of support or babysitting. Katyusha suffers the same problems as the Panzerwerfer.

Overall:
Call-in tanks are more accessible than T3/T4 for both factions, although this seems to be a much bigger deal on the Germans. Soviets can beat a Tiger with T2/T3 combo or T4, but dual T-34/85's is very difficult to fight with OH T3 and T4 is seldom used due to pricing.

Oh dear I've written a small essay.

Jump back to quoted post10 Jun 2014, 08:08 AMAndreasCarnhide

Thats partly right.

Players (most time the best and most experienced players) develop the metagame, correct. While doing so they tend to find the most efficient and easy way to beat there opponents because they want to win. So they check out the amount of options the game offers and lean into the options which support this objective at best.

And thats the problem. CoH lack´s options. Talking about 1 vs 1 there is some sort of balance but there are also just about 2 strategies and a lot of useless units. Relic has to tweak the balance but Relic also hast to tweak the game design itself. This will give players the opportunity to develop a more extensive metagame. And i am talking about options & strategies for the mainstream player, not just the top players as the always got more options (Twister talked about MGs for example) because of there better understanding of the game.

To sum it up, the metagame is made by the players as a result of options the game offers based on the game design and the current balance of the game.