Soviet Support team or Why would Soviets use combined arms?

let me guess Jheartless is a soviet only player and ... he is not content with the overwhelming advantage of soviets now you want to BUFF soviet weapon teams LOLLLLLLLLL

play both sides instead of abusing the current soviet cheater abilities.

-big post-

The reason the ZiS is slower is because it is harder to decrew and doubles as artillery if you pay for it. A PaK for the same price comes with 4 men and can only harm tanks. A ZiS comes with 6 men and can shell said PaK out of existence if it wanted to. You can use it to shell enemy MG's or capping squads, which you cannot do with a PaK.

The reason the Ostheer Mortar fires faster and more accurately is because it's fighting against things like Conscripts and Maxims which are very mobile and have large squads. The Soviet Mortar is slower and less accurate because it's fighting a more campy enemy with smaller squads, but it gains "precision strike" to force-retreat or kill enemy support teams if needed.

The reason the ZiS is slower is because it is harder to decrew and doubles as artillery if you pay for it. A PaK for the same price comes with 4 men and can only harm tanks. A ZiS comes with 6 men and can shell said PaK out of existence if it wanted to. You can use it to shell enemy MG's or capping squads, which you cannot do with a PaK.

The reason the Ostheer Mortar fires faster and more accurately is because it's fighting against things like Conscripts and Maxims which are very mobile and have large squads. The Soviet Mortar is slower and less accurate because it's fighting a more campy enemy with smaller squads, but it gains "precision strike" to force-retreat or kill enemy support teams if needed.

Except with the new lethality changes they are no longer harder to decrew to anything outside of flames and explosives. Actually with the 25% increase PLUS Osts in general superior firepower they are damn near the same (like one second more time to non upgraded Grens without Rnade when compared to conscripts attacking a support team with no upgrades at point blank range).

Thats gone away and I dont think the community has caught on to that fact thus this post.

I also didnt say that it shouldnt fire faster. I said the gap is too large with taking into account the indirect nerf to their surviability with the infantry changes. Feel free to run the numbers if my math is wrong correct me. But when I checked it was just a minuscule amount more surviability. That to me is not a good enough reason for them to suck so hard in comparison any longer.

Also the Soviet Mortar is almost never built. The Ost mortars are much more common. There is a common sense reason for that. Its just much more useful. Prec strike or no. I dont think your really debating that though are you?

Prec strike goes back to the point of balancing based of Vet 1 abilities and again I refer to the Pak TWP.

@thestrongone Pull my player card. I have plenty of Ost games under my belt. So troll elsewhere.

I just think its odd then everybody seems to be content with the way the Soviet support teams are now. I am certainly not so I stick to scripts. Which is very common in the meta. Because Scripts are rewarding.

When I meet a turtle I would like the option to punish them with Mortar fire if I so choose. I want that option. As it stands if you sit there for 15 seconds under Mortar fire without moving then yeah good chance you might get hit. Not alot of people even at my rank are that stupid. Pack up and move.

81MM? NOPE two are in the air before the first one lands your gonna take a hurting. If buffing the Soviet Mortar and perhpas the Zis and fixing the drop weapon bug on retreat is off the table then how about nerfing Osts?

I dont want that but hey its not even close to balanced for cost right now IMHO.

yeah i think the sov mortar needs its ROF fire increased.


Also 120mm mortar needs to be more consistent. It either

A- kills everything
B- kills nothing

Since 120mm didn't get any changes in Elbe day patch and has stayed at a ridiculous 400mp I think its range should be slightly buffed. Not back to beta or release range which was over-the-top but give it some more. 120 is an area-denial weapon less than a hardcore bleeding tool.

Maybe one in 10 games ill get 2-3 entity kills with it or free additional tank damage. Do I think it would as useful to saying having the reload down to say 3.5 to 4.1? Not in the least. Would changing it that little really be too much to ask? Would it make the Zis OP? No I think not.

It looks like trolling but it's really a L2P issue.
You have to learn the best timing and best range using it. It is like a overgrown riflenade. A barrage killing a bunch of Gren in cover is huge. I tried in a 1v1 only using barrage killing inf can raise the gunner to vet 3.

@thestrongone Pull my player card. I have plenty of Ost games under my belt. So troll elsewhere.

No you don't.

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It looks like trolling but it's really a L2P issue.
You have to learn the best timing and best range using it. It is like a overgrown riflenade. A barrage killing a bunch of Gren in cover is huge. I tried in a 1v1 only using barrage killing inf can raise the gunner to vet 3.



No you don't.

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I sense a "pot calling the kettle black" moment here.

I sense a "pot calling the kettle black" moment here.

I had reached top 50 in Soviet before in 2013, got bored of it because every game is slow, stalling and repetitive.

I had reached top 50 in Soviet before in 2013, got bored of it because every game is slow, stalling and repetitive.

Close to 100 just 1v1 is plenty. No idea what your talking about there bud.

120mm mortar worst investment of resources, it is better to buy 2 - 82 mm mortars.
Accuracy - 0
a turn, and prepare for battle - a huge
firing range is almost the same as the 82 mm

What, you want a squadwhiper to have even greater accuracy? You have the precision strike. And for the record I wouldn't make the trade you suggested. 120 mm is the best mortar in the game, 2 of them will deny any german infantry push. It doesn't even need to be that accurate.

There is a difference between weak and not as strong. For example the T34 isnt weak. But its not as strong as an IS2.

I am saying soviet combined arms (at least in 1v1 in my experience) is not as strong as Spamming conscripts or sniper builds. When I say combined arms I mean support teams and I mean more than just two different units.

I disagree here. There are certain maps (kholody and crossing come to mind) where having 2 maxims worked into your build is more useful than having 2 more conscripts. On Kholody, you can use your maxim to help pressure your opponents cutoff at a range greater than the conscripts effective dps against grens, and on crossing even a single maxim has more than enough time to reposition against multiple grens trying to cross the river, try it out and tell me what you think. Most of my build orders vary depending on the map. Also, I would consider a combination of shocks, cons, maxims, and atgs an early game combined arms effort. What do you consider combined arms if not that?

Two Zis are good but 1 Pak can do close to the same job at AT. 2 Maxims when 1 MG42 well microd can do the same thing (when it comes to blob control supporting grens).

I strongly disagree with this point. A single pak cannot cover 2 flanks, just as a single mg42 cannot be in two different parts of the map at the same time. Just because the pak fills a more direct at role does not mean it is as capable and versatile as two zis guns. This is hyperbole.

Can Maxims be useful? Sure. Can Zis be useful? Well yeah its kind of neccassary and the only reason I build T2 to be honest.

People are always going to try and min max what unit is the most cost effective and spam it in every situation regardless of the map or opposing build order, that doesn't mean that there aren't certain situations where an mg is going to be more valuable than another conscript.

Zis reload 4.425
Pak reload: 2.7 to 3.1

You are judging these units in a vaccum. Without the context of where they fit in with each army these values mean next to nothing.

Do i think barrage is useful? Yeah it can be. Maybe one in 10 games ill get 2-3 entity kills with it or free additional tank damage. Do I think it would as useful to saying having the reload down to say 3.5 to 4.1? Not in the least. Would changing it that little really be too much to ask? Would it make the Zis OP? No I think not.

Same goes with the Mortar

82 MM reload of 7.4
81 MM reload of 2.4

A 5 SECOND DIFFERENCE thats just INSANE. Is prec strike useful? Yeah I can spend muni and maybe get 2-3 entity kills for my trouble. Would I just get more kills with having a reload that gets the nicname "Turbo Mortar" for good reason? Yeah I would every game. Much much more valuable.

I mean if that difference in ability doesnt make you go GOOD LORD then you have to be the biggest fanboy on this forum.

Maxim is just personal preference. I want blob control but I cant have everything that I want. The issue with the maxim is dropping the stupid gun because you got hit and then the next guy dropping it etc and you wont be able to retreat.

So I am still of the opinion when I play as Ost and use support teams I get a much better result then when I use the Soviets. Outside of maybe Maxim spam.

I think your underselling the barrage ability, it isn't meant to be spammed, and since the patch it is quite accurate and reliable. I like to open an assault with it by using it on a key mg or pak before making a push.

I agree with the points about the russian mortars, they feel extremely unreliable and the whole "whoops I dropped the gun" issue is endlessly frustrating. I wonder if it would be possible to simply put a set timer on the retreat time for weapon squads. It might look a little goofy for the weapon itself to jump to one of the models on retreat, but I would prefer that than watching a 6 man weapon team die one by one 15 seconds after issuing the retreat command.

Don't forget the Merge ability!

Festive. You and I use support teams differently. I use them to push not to camp. Behind my infantry push. So in my case my Pak is an offensive weapon not defensive. I dont need to guard flanks because I am pushing with it.

720MP for a unit who is designed to kill tanks is a huge investment for me. I like try to stick to one ATG if I am teching or two if I am using call ins. In both of these cases a Pak is just a better choice. I dont care about barrage. I really dont. I have lots of other things I spend my muni on than an ability that can be dodged after the first hit.

Also how does an ATG fit into the Context of one army more than the context of another? That makes 0 sense to me. How does the need for armor defense through manpower differ from the Soviet side to Osts?

Again every time I read your arguements all I see is you assuming I say they are all TRASH!!! They have uses. But they are inferior and costs the same at their roles with maybe the exception of a maxim.

Zis: Role Anti Tank/Indirect fire.

Better Alternative for AT Pak better for indirect fire 81MM/82MM

Mortar: Role indirect fire.

Better Alternative: Every mortar on Osts side.

How does having crap indirect fire and mediocre anti tank fit into the context of the soviets? Other than to say the context of the soviets is to have crappier support teams in general.

For the record I almost never use barrage. I let mortars free fire. Maybe you meant I was under selling Precsion Strike?

What, you want a squadwhiper to have even greater accuracy? You have the precision strike. And for the record I wouldn't make the trade you suggested. 120 mm is the best mortar in the game, 2 of them will deny any german infantry push. It doesn't even need to be that accurate.

Its accuracy is so shocking - that he does not gain 1 level vet.
10 fights, lasting 30-40 minutes, or one 120mm mortar not scored Level 1 vet, 82 mm mortar average gaining level 2 vet, you feel the difference? and all this pleasure for 400 personnel.

Its accuracy is so shocking - that he does not gain 1 level vet.
10 fights, lasting 30-40 minutes, or one 120mm mortar not scored Level 1 vet, 82 mm mortar average gaining level 2 vet, you feel the difference? and all this pleasure for 400 personnel.

Its a dice roll. I have had 120MM just LOL the crap out of Ost players and I have had many more occasions where it does nothing at all the whole game.

I agree for 400MP its not efficient. Its another case of its better than nothing...(some times)

One of the keys for using the 120mm in my opinion is working around the long hang-time on the shell. Attacking ground in a predictive way to get good hits is a MUCH faster way to get vet 1 than just letting your 120 sit back and auto-fire.

The 120mm also has a +10% exp bulletin that I often use to get the precision-strike faster.

That being said, I really think it deserves a mp decrease to call in, slightly improved range, a move back to one CP or a mix of these things.

One of the keys for using the 120mm in my opinion is working around the long hang-time on the shell. Attacking ground in a predictive way to get good hits is a MUCH faster way to get vet 1 than just letting your 120 sit back and auto-fire.

The 120mm also has a +10% exp bulletin that I often use to get the precision-strike faster.

That being said, I really think it deserves a mp decrease to call in, slightly improved range, a move back to one CP or a mix of these things.

'

Off topic but i fucking love your new avatar lol

Yeah and good point actually. I dont use attack ground enough. I shall have to try that.

JHeartless, this replay (from game 2 of the ESL 1 on 1 tourney) displays great use of the zis barrage and how it can be effectivly used. When I said you were underselling its "crap indirect fire" this is what I was referring too. Textbook example of how it should be employed, to take out key support weapons that require a pack up time, which gives the barrage several opportunities to either wipe the team entirely, or force a retreat with 1 man, leaving your opponent vulnerable to a solid push. On top of that, the game itself is a good one and worth a watch regardless.

http://www.coh2.org/replay/17816/esl-1on1-cup-1-semis-g2

Watch it and let me know what you think.

What, you want a squadwhiper to have even greater accuracy? You have the precision strike. And for the record I wouldn't make the trade you suggested. 120 mm is the best mortar in the game, 2 of them will deny any german infantry push. It doesn't even need to be that accurate.

But with the 400 mp tag, 2 of them and how many cons can u have? Soviet support weapon is only good when cons are around, without cons, none of that matters.

But with the 400 mp tag, 2 of them and how many cons can u have? Soviet support weapon is only good when cons are around, without cons, none of that matters.

If you can't spam enough cons, then let me doubt about your efficiency as a soviet player.

If you can't spam enough cons, then let me doubt about your efficiency as a soviet player.

Feel free to check my rank.