T34/85 is way too overpowered(proof inside)

Just like the Americans were in Iraq. Every. Single. One.

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Straw man claim

20 million civilian dead.

'Russian' propaganda, about men defending their country from the Nazis? Get real..

Ah yes, Stalin's Red Angels defending the mighty Motherland against the evil Hitler Demons...

The Eastern Front was essentially 2 authoritarian empires going at it, but one of them was friends with the "good guys". Nevertheless the politics and leadership of either side were awful, and I don't give a fuck. I want a movie about the soldiers and the battles they partook in, without the ideological propaganda you find in most Russian movies.

Please not this "holier then thou" discussion again...

Germans were Evil, Russians were Evil. Case Closed. Any fanbois or defenders of either regime during that time period can go back to their propagnada-ist videos and books that they love to get off to and stay there.

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Except those that don't read much?

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In the end, this is what kept the Red Army together- ordinary people. The Red army was holier than the Wehrmacht.

The problem with the Wehr/police in the East was that it was institutionally brutal and genocidal- while the Red Army's crimes were either haphazard or political in nature. Still, the lion share of victims are with the Wehr. the Wehr's civilian kill total is up to 20 million, while the Red Army is in the thousands.

I have seen many east front war films, and scenes shown in eg.

'Brest fortress' (Germans use civilian shields to cross a bridge)
'Come and See' (extermination of village)

and German productions:

'Stalingrad' (Germans killing civilians just to steal their food supply)
'Generation War' (Germans killing civilians and using civilians to clear minefields)

These things happened.

I dunno, you want an action film but war crimes was very much alongside the action.

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Except those that don't read?

No, those that don't accept every single piece of video and literature out there as "true" fact in a war that was horrifying for all sides. Having an open mind is always a good thing. I have read many books and watched many videos, most of which had the same conclusion for whoever was producing them. The atrocities done by both sides during the war were unspeakable. If you didn't know what the Russians did during their push into Germany from 1943-45, killing children, raping innocent women, etc....then you are indeed blinded. Germans are also to blame for committing atrocities as well early in the war. Defending a side though for doing something as payback as well is also stupid. You saw how nicely the Soviets treated their comrades after and before the war. Sending innocent "civilians" to the gulags or frontlines. They had no freedom.

If we leave the timeframe to just the war itself, the atrocities of the red army pale in terms of scale compared to the Wehrmacht.

There is no comparison- one army did it sometimes, the other did it all the time. This is why the German civilian death toll caused by the Red Army is so comparatively low. 100 times less or more.

This is why East front movies have so many war crime depictions imo.

Please not this "holier then thou" discussion again...

Coh2player seems quite adamant about restarting this discussion again.

Not really, as I have made up my mind on this subject long ago. Nazis were much worse than Stalinists, while both were criminal in my book. The bulk of the conscripted red army men were motivated by patriotism rather than particular love of the communist state. They knew that they could not allow the nazis to win, and what the greater evil was.

Coh2player seems quite adamant about restarting this discussion again.

both armys raped their way through the east

It should be noted the american fire bombings of dresden hamburg and japan's cities were some of the worst single day civillain casualties during the war. Almost of all of those cities were of non military importance. History is written by the winner all sides are guilty of attrocities in war. The fact that people believe it is okay to slaughter others because of flag, proves that we are all just sheep after all. Burn the flags the idols and let science be the law of the land......now please send me all your money so i can help spread this medsage of love

now please send me all your money so i can help spread this medsage of love

Capitalism dictates society and socialism killed everyone. Silly humans. Humans corrupt all ideals of government.

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Straw man claim

20 million civilian dead.

What did Stalin think about it?

One mans death ... thousands ... hmmm "statistics"?

Nazis were much worse than Stalinists, while both were criminal in my book.

Oh really, where you there when WW2 was fought so you can say that?
The only diference is that one side was the "agressor" and the other side was the "agresssed". So germans bear the fault to be the starters of the disaster.
But both of them comited the same amount of war crimes during WW2, read the true history. The nazis were eliminated and the regime changed in Germany after WW2 wich cannot be said about Soviet Union that continued its crimes against its own people and, sadly, against people from eastern countries; so, logically, in time, stalinist regime made more victims than the nazi one.

And if you don't believe me, ask some: Cechs, Polish, Hungarian and Romanian. Poland, unfortunately , had the misfortune to suffer the same amount of crimes from both sides. There is a certain forest where were discovered hundreds of polish officers and soldiers bodies executed by the soviets in early days of WW2 when soviets invaded Poland in the same time nazis invaded it.
The discovery was kept secret untill few years ago, because, see, the "discoverers" of the massacre were the nazis.

Oh, the irony.

So, see, this "soviets were not so bad as nazis were" doesn't hold water.

The Wehr, police units, and SS succeeded in de-populating the USSR west of Leningrad, Rzhev, and Stalingrad by up to 20 million using terror tactics. Cities devastated..Towns and villages were removed off the map. Generalplan Ost, deportation/forced labor, human shields/hostage taking, killing most red army POWs, concentration camps, Collateral damage, robbery & starvation, genocide, use of biological warfare and mass murders. Scorched earth tactics. The SS co-opted the German police battalions of the east to the point where the police force/anti-partisan army became a de-facto part of the SS, and executed SS racial policies.

The Red Army troops, while moving westward and removing the Axis from vast areas Soviet territory starting from the summer of 1943 (Orel, Kharkov-B offensive) started to discover more and more the effects of the de-population and the suffering of the civilians in these areas.

By the time they reached Germany, many were quite vengeful for the horrors that were inflicted upon their country and their families, so indiscipline rose in areas (rape, looting, pow shooting, etc.) But at no time did these crimes rival that of the Wehrmacht in scale. There was also indiscipline on their own territory and in other eastern nations but these were relatively petty compared to what the Nazis did. The Soviets, as ruthless as they were towards their political enemies, did not carry out a race war.

To go further, the strategic bombing campaign by the Western Allies killed most of the German civilians in WW2, not the Red Army. The German armed forces were the greatest murderers of civilians of WW2. There is no moral equivalence between the Soviets & the Nazis + their enablers.

Anyway, I should reconsider posting about WW2 on a videogame website..

CoH2 player, your knowledge is commendable but I find it difficult to justify the Red Army's raping and pillaging of Eastern Europe in the slightest.

OTOH Heini, I think it's fair to say that the Soviets did not try to commit the wholesale genocide of multiple racial and ethnic minorities in their own and occupied states. Jews, Homosexuals and others.

The massacre soviet did in early WW2 in Poland can't be related to "vengeful" spirit, the Germans had not ivaded USSR yet. It was related to politics and the resistance to comunism.
All these crimes were commended by NKVD comissars which continued their crimes through WW2 and after.
Regular soldiers (except those having "vengeful" reasons or indoctrinated beyond reason) did much less war crimes. And so was in Wehrmacht case. SS troops and commanders were the main responsible for war crimes and for obliging other to do war crimes. If you were a soldier and an NKVD/SS officer would order to you to kill a civilian, you had a choice: do it, or face the consequences. And the consequences were beyond imagination in terms of torture for you and for your family. All civilians were victims of both sick regimes that inflicted many suffering and sorrow wherever they put their boot in. Making a difference between them seems quite unrealistic.

So.. t34-85 crews have been trained in telepathy, in which Hanz "accidentally" flooded the panzer IV with gasoline. The tiger crew was too drunk from celebrating their 100th confirmed kill, in which they couldnt see the t34-85 that was clearly in front of them, missing their shots because they were just too drunk to aim right. That sounds about right.