Thoughts on the Stale 2v2 Meta (ISU v Ele)

Jaeger Armor Doctrine is a free commander. In fact, I think it's one of the ones you have straight off the bat.
I can't remember (and don't feel like looking up) if Shock Motor Heavy and/or Mechanized Support are premium items.
Good points.

Oh yeah, I guess I forgot that was a free commander. I would still like to hear relics point of view about reworking redundant commander abilities and commanders like NKVD and German Infantry that are completely unviable.

As I said:

Soviet fields ISU. You dont have Elefant? say gg wp
German fields Elefant. No problem, dont go T4/ISU.

aggressive pak 43 with support.

little bit of topic but in reference to company of call-ins problems, why not just make doctrinal units buildable once the commander is chosen. remember a long time ago when if you went shocks, it replaced penals? but this time if you went shock/guards, they will be available in t1 and t2(without replacing) with build times. ass gren and ostruppen will be in t0, medium to heavy tank call-ins in t3 and t4. or for call in tanks, you need to build new t5 building or something like that. also you cant build them until cp reaches requirement.

ps. there "new" trailer for western front on youtube. its basically what we saw on the rezzed thingy. release date june 24th, pre-order available!!

...why not just make doctrinal units buildable once the commander is chosen. remember a long time ago when if you went shocks, it replaced penals? but this time if you went shock/guards, they will be available in t1 and t2(without replacing) with build times. ass gren and ostruppen will be in t0, medium to heavy tank call-ins in t3 and t4...

Nice!
would not the ele/Isu forcibly removed, but the base units back into focus provide
 
In such a gameplay I would really enjoy - hope a relic employee is near^^

I'd like to see isu penetration nerfed and Elefant damage nerfed - from 320 to 240, because it kills medium tanks with 2 shots and heavies with 3 shots, you catch the first shot and you just cant react before it fires for the second time and kills your tank. And maybe range nerfed to 75-80 for both, its still very long range

The Elefant fires quite slowly and whether you can retreat in time or not is quite dependent on a lot of factors regarding terrain, reaction time, etc. It's only sometimes a death sentence.

I think the worst part about these units being so good is how they change game play. You can be completely dominating until one of these pops out and it turns into a game of how can I inflict damage without being shot by it (Much easier said than done). Elephants and ISUs shut down armor pushing units off of important points because you'll get hit the second your opponent gets sight of it. They also make infantry pushes hard because without tank support MGs can really hamper any assault not to mention if their allies have any armor to push back your attack without retaliation. Really it turns into a not very fun game of cat and mouse which is terribly easy for the cat to win.

aggressive pak 43 with support.

Uhmm...nope, IL2 bombing run goes boom! also katyusha and 120mm does it pretty good.

Medium tanks in 2 shot? wut? lol keep exaggerating. It is 3 shots. And yes, with the slow firing rate of the Elefant, 1 SINGLE shot can make difference, so saying 2 instead of 3..thats too much.
And it kills ISU in 4 shots, not 3.

This is just my opinion:

Best 2vs2 in big map for German: Spearhead + Jaeger Armour.

Best 2vs2 in small map for German: Assault Grenade + Jaeger

Best 2vs2 for Russian: ISU + whatever the fuck my teammate want I don't care.

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The point about ISU is clear so I don't think I need to repeat that.

But also look at the Elephant please: Don't let it upgrade with spotting scope.

I mean holy jesus, upgrade with scope + hold fire => map hack. That thing can freaking see your mom having sex with me in my room jesus.

Think is, with ability to hold fire + scope, sometimes without radio intercept you may not know that Elephant is out on the field, look at you moving your toy tank around and come up with a tactic.

Scope for other tank is fine, but for Elephant that NOW have hold fire is a no no.

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Oh btw, do something about the FUCKING PAK43 too. I mean come on you gonna release the " Western army " and you still have that thing shoot through wall ? How many patch have this game come through ?

Ele with scope = maphack?

No, it is not even effective. Vetted 222 scoped with Ele is real Maphack.

Ele with scope = maphack?

No, it is not even effective. Vetted 222 scoped with Ele is real Maphack.

This!!

As I said:

Soviet fields ISU. You dont have Elefant? say gg wp
German fields Elefant. No problem, dont go T4/ISU.

And how is it that you couldn't flank ISU? Why it's immediately gg wp?

Someone in other thread says that killing Elephant requires 2x T34 and a flank. I managed to kill ISU yesterday with 2x PzIV. What is this sorcery?

And how is it that you couldn't flank ISU? Why it's immediately gg wp?

Someone in other thread says that killing Elephant requires 2x T34 and a flank. I managed to kill ISU yesterday with 2x PzIV. What is this sorcery?

It depends on map layout, enemy skill and situation. An ISU-152 is not enough to win back a game they have already basically lost since they won't have the units to support it. And on maps without large areas of Line of Site that are conducive the extreme range gun, it won't be game-breaking either. And if htey're total noobs who don't support it naturally it can be taken out too.

However a lot of the most common maps do have big open areas where the ISU can shine, and most players beyond the low ranges are going to know a thing or two about how to support it, particularly if they're following what now seems like the standard Soviet strategy of Guards/Snipers/Cons/AT guns for the early and mid game. Unless you've already broken their back, or can get out an Elephant ASAP, it's likely that the ISU will win the game for them.

I guess the Pak43 is also a solid counter assuming they don't have precision bombing or howitzers. But that is NOT likely in team games.

Except there aren't even any good flanking vehicles, only the T-34.

You are obviously forgeting Shermanns. Maybe I would too, but last night my partner's Elefant got cached by a fast shermann which made some circles around it and together with a zis behind, it destoyed the Elefant. of course everybody can say now that it was unsuported, but actually it was. By a Tiger that turned the turret so slow that it didn't manage to catch the shermann untill it was to late.

At weapons to soviet infantry will mean gg forever for germans.

This!!

C'mon guys, why is everybody forgetting about the ZIS and SU-85s maphack abilities? AND THESE ARE NOT DOCTRINAL!
Germans have the spotting scope just in 2 doctrines, so at "info" and "maphack" chapters soviets are doing better than germans. 1-2 SU-85s and 1-2 ZIS and nobody can aproach whithout soviet player knowing, plus german targets can be hit out of their spotting range.

It depends on map layout, enemy skill and situation.

Of course it does. My message was just as provoking as Kronosaur0s's. I was saying it's also possible to flank ISU and was asking why did he state that it's automatically gg wp.

There is a lot of exaggeration and hyperbole used on these forums. I don't think ISU is instant GG but he probably wouldn't either once questioned in detail.

I do think it's too effective though.

And how is it that you couldn't flank ISU? Why it's immediately gg wp?

Someone in other thread says that killing Elephant requires 2x T34 and a flank. I managed to kill ISU yesterday with 2x PzIV. What is this sorcery?

If it is unsuported you can kill it with 2 P4 (but that means a weak oponent). I can tell ya that for a suported ISU to be killed it took 2 P4 and 2 Tigers. It costed 2 P4 and one Tiger.

So possible solutions are adding more appropriately sized maps for 2v2, so that such units can't cover 2 VPs at once, or slightly nerfing the range of these supertanks.

This is what I've been hoping for since release, dedicated 1v1 and 2v2 maps. 2v2 maps really need to be bigger than 1v1 maps. I think it would also help solving the "supertank" issue

C'mon guys, why is everybody forgetting about the ZIS and SU-85s maphack abilities? AND THESE ARE NOT DOCTRINAL!
Germans have the spotting scope just in 2 doctrines, so at "info" and "maphack" chapters soviets are doing better than germans. 1-2 SU-85s and 1-2 ZIS and nobody can aproach whithout soviet player knowing, plus german targets can be hit out of their spotting range.

Have you seen the actual range of vision between Spotting scope on a vet2/3 222 and the vet 1 ability of the soviets?

One gives you mostly temporaly forward vision increase for you to hit with your Zis/Su, the other one gives you 24/7 vision around the whole map (shotblockers aside).

Only thing comparable is the real maphack from the gimmick Partisan commander.

I dont think any tank should really have the massive range that the Ele and ISU/Is-2 have. The pak43 is an exception because it cannot move and rotating it has to be micro'd. Hence the pak43 is easy to bombard or flank.

The Elefant and ISU should have a good range (greater than most tanks), but I ahve come across the situation where an ISU attacked ground my Pak43 to decrew the gun/detroy the gun outright.

On maps as small as Crossing in the Woods for instance, the long range tanks rule the battlefield without mercy. I do not like this type of gameplay.

The issue is like that:
- ISU got too much potential, it is very good against infantry + AT capabilities, + it is very hard to kill, this shit got ton of armour and HP. For example, stuka bombing with 50 kg bomb on top of this beast is 50 % hp only.

TO counter this, german team needs:
- Elephant, which is only good against tanks, and got same/longer range than ISU
- Aggresive pak 43 placement, good map to pull this off
- Flank with combo of smoke and advanced shit, it is almost impossible to do on small maps like crossing, or semoisky, or hard to pull off when opponent is not retarded.

It is like on certain maps, 1 ISU can be dealt with, but 2 x ISU means literally gg, even with weak opponent, coz ISU is wiping squads with 1 hit from the half of the map. There are no other counters to that.