ISU-152
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26 Apr 2014, 13:53 PM
#41
Posts: 419
Having to rely on one doctrinal unit to fight one unit is bad game design. When the Tiger ace was the king of coh2 Soviet players obviously saw the design flaw. Now Sov players have a Tiger Ace that can one/2 shot everything and shoots at arty range and everything is ok? This thing has range, armor and punch vs everything. In order to get close to it, you have to kill the rest of the sov army while getting pummeled by it's cannon. This thing now has no weaknesses and thats a really bad design.
26 Apr 2014, 14:03 PM
#42
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
Having to rely on one doctrinal unit to fight one unit is bad game design.
Welcome to the world of soviets! Enjoy your stay.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
26 Apr 2014, 14:03 PM
#43
Posts: 1439
Having to rely on one doctrinal unit to fight one unit is bad game design. When the Tiger ace was the king of coh2 Soviet players obviously saw the design flaw. Now Sov players have a Tiger Ace that can one/2 shot everything and shoots at arty range and everything is ok? This thing has range, armor and punch vs everything. In order to get close to it, you have to kill the rest of the sov army while getting pummeled by it's cannon. This thing now has no weaknesses and thats a really bad design.
Are you really comparing ISU-152 against first implementation of Tiger Ace?
Anyway now German players have the feel of fighting against supported Elephant.
26 Apr 2014, 14:05 PM
#44
Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2
Having to rely on one doctrinal unit to fight one unit is bad game design. When the Tiger ace was the king of coh2 Soviet players obviously saw the design flaw. Now Sov players have a Tiger Ace that can one/2 shot everything and shoots at arty range and everything is ok? This thing has range, armor and punch vs everything. In order to get close to it, you have to kill the rest of the sov army while getting pummeled by it's cannon. This thing now has no weaknesses and thats a really bad design.
ISU has no weaknesses? Hmmm slow rotate, rear armor?
So what weaknesses has Tigers Ace? Great armor, great AT, not bad AI, speed etc. Only range.
Elephant - best AT, insane frontal armor, penetration, damage. Only bad AI. Combain with Brrumbar and you will recive very mobile short-range 'ISU" + Long-range best AT.
26 Apr 2014, 14:11 PM
#45
Posts: 419
none of that is really weakness if your enemies cant get close to you. If you let them get close to you, in the words of the great mastermind Herman Cain "Blame Yo self". Sov players talk about the greatness of Elefant but in truth it never earns it keeps. Its more of a idle threat than an actual. Or it is a ram magnet. Both of which is probably not the intended use when someone buys it.
26 Apr 2014, 14:12 PM
#46
Posts: 1585 | Subs: 1
Seriously though the ISU 152 is too good right now. You can call me a German fanboy if you wish, but having a unit that wipes squads and destroys tanks in two shots (which the elephant does not do) is wrong.
Also the argument that because elephant is possibly broken ISU 152 should be as well, is incredibly poorly constructed. Elephant makes no sense because it spots for itself, but in all seriousness I have never had a problem with elephants even in larger games.
The ISU 152 should not be able to wipe squads that is boring game play and poor design. I am all for the Soviets having intimidating units, but that should not come at the cost of forcing Germans to go elephant.
Also Australian to have a Brumbar + Elephant, you would need >600 fuel, so that should never happen. If you let your opponent get both that is your problem. To top that that means >50% of his army is in one spot on the map. Just drive somewhere else.
Also the argument that because elephant is possibly broken ISU 152 should be as well, is incredibly poorly constructed. Elephant makes no sense because it spots for itself, but in all seriousness I have never had a problem with elephants even in larger games.
The ISU 152 should not be able to wipe squads that is boring game play and poor design. I am all for the Soviets having intimidating units, but that should not come at the cost of forcing Germans to go elephant.
Also Australian to have a Brumbar + Elephant, you would need >600 fuel, so that should never happen. If you let your opponent get both that is your problem. To top that that means >50% of his army is in one spot on the map. Just drive somewhere else.
26 Apr 2014, 14:15 PM
#47
Posts: 680
Have the Isu-152 become faster and better to turn in this patch? Last time I used it it was horrible to maneuver. One missklick and it showed its rear(gg). And has its pop gotten lower? Last time I used it was like 25 pop and it was only in two commanders. And is it 12 cp?
Mortars or howis to take out the at-guns, distract it with a infantry unit (make it turn) and then flank? If the sovietplayer loose it then its probably gg.
Mortars or howis to take out the at-guns, distract it with a infantry unit (make it turn) and then flank? If the sovietplayer loose it then its probably gg.
26 Apr 2014, 14:21 PM
#48
Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2
@VonMecha - one I played 4v4 as soviets with my mates. German called for elephant. We lost 2x IS-2 and 6x T34-85 to destroy 1 Elephant and 3 Panthers (Panthers went down but Elephant survived due to insane armor). If ISU wasnt buffed, Elephant would be totally invulnerable.
@Imagelessbean - destroy tanks in 2 shots? You definitely exaggerate. Even PzIV can stand more than 2 frontal hits.
And I see you forgot something. Brrumbar hits target almost always. ISU misses often (especially if shooting AI).
@Imagelessbean - destroy tanks in 2 shots? You definitely exaggerate. Even PzIV can stand more than 2 frontal hits.
And I see you forgot something. Brrumbar hits target almost always. ISU misses often (especially if shooting AI).
26 Apr 2014, 14:22 PM
#49
Posts: 1701
none of that is really weakness if your enemies cant get close to you. If you let them get close to you, in the words of the great mastermind Herman Cain "Blame Yo self". Sov players talk about the greatness of Elefant but in truth it never earns it keeps. Its more of a idle threat than an actual. Or it is a ram magnet. Both of which is probably not the intended use when someone buys it.
You obviously havent seen my replay which I show my only 1 elefant in the game get vet 3 killing 5 ISU152 and 3 T34/85 from skilled Soviet players (StC).
Seriously, stop underestimating the glorious elefant. If its used in the right hands, it becomes hell for soviet players.
Blaue Division - The best corp
BPX - Black Phoenix, Clan leader.
BPX - Black Phoenix, Clan leader.
26 Apr 2014, 14:26 PM
#50
Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2
Give that man a cookie!!
Seriously, stop underestimating the glorious elefant. If its used in the right hands, it becomes hell for soviet players.
True. Only use it in right way and ISU wont be so OP as you say. You just get used to no counter from soviets in late-game.
26 Apr 2014, 14:29 PM
#51
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
You obviously havent seen my replay which I show my only 1 elefant in the game get vet 3 killing 5 ISU152 and 3 T34/85 from skilled Soviet players (StC).
Seriously, stop underestimating the glorious elefant. If its used in the right hands, it becomes hell for soviet players.
+1.
This thread is classic "grass is greener on the other side" case.
There is a reason why soviets complained about ele since release.
This patch made it easier to kill flanked elephant, flanking elephant is still impossible if you know how to play and Ele will effortlessly wreck ISU.
Having to get heavy tank destroyer to be able to fight heavy assault gun frontally? I see nothing wrong with it.
Flank it and its scrap metal.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
26 Apr 2014, 14:30 PM
#52
Posts: 1585 | Subs: 1
@VonMecha - one I played 4v4 as soviets with my mates. German called for elephant. We lost 2x IS-2 and 6x T34-85 to destroy 1 Elephant and 3 Panthers (Panthers went down but Elephant survived due to insane armor). If ISU wasnt buffed, Elephant would be totally invulnerable.
@Imagelessbean - destroy tanks in 2 shots? You definitely exaggerate. Even PzIV can stand more than 2 frontal hits.
So you decided to attack 4 heavy AT units with tanks, and you think you should have won? You don't counter Panthers and Elephants with big slow heavy tanks, you use guards, zis, and kats (shocks with shreks if you have them). My head hurt reading that.
It certainly can destroy tanks in two shots, mark target comes in a doc with this unit (not to mention docs that synergize with it extremely well). Also don't forget it regularly gets shocks on crews frequently giving it a chance to shoot another shot at a tank.
If you are having problems with it rotating too far have it attack ground at the area you think your enemy's real threat will come from. It will ignore the stupid pios and stay focused on the real threat.
You also failed to address my point that arguing one unit in a faction is OP therefore protects having an OP unit on the other side, which is out right ridiculous.
26 Apr 2014, 14:30 PM
#53
Posts: 1701
Well, I use the Mammoth 80% in my games and as it seems, I know how to use it, so usually it gives me the win easily unless they go massive counteroffensive with 8 T34/85 (sounds crazy yes, but is the only way to kill my elef in my matches XD)
Blaue Division - The best corp
BPX - Black Phoenix, Clan leader.
BPX - Black Phoenix, Clan leader.
26 Apr 2014, 14:35 PM
#54
4 Posts: 117
Australian Magic, bringing up 4v4 in a balance discussion is really dumb. The game is not balanced for 4v4, period. Nobody cares.
Beyond that I am quite perplexed that the ISU apologists' stance seems to be that two wrongs make a right. I will not defend the initial rollout of the Tiger Ace, but I really don't understand why the fact that Soviets have had to deal with some unbalanced BS means that it's OK for Germans to have to deal with overpowered BS. Sorry, no, that's not how it works, and the best players play both factions anyway.
Beyond that I am quite perplexed that the ISU apologists' stance seems to be that two wrongs make a right. I will not defend the initial rollout of the Tiger Ace, but I really don't understand why the fact that Soviets have had to deal with some unbalanced BS means that it's OK for Germans to have to deal with overpowered BS. Sorry, no, that's not how it works, and the best players play both factions anyway.
26 Apr 2014, 14:36 PM
#55
Posts: 1702
honestly, isu-152 and elephant is fine on 1V1s.
Its in team games where it becomes a problem..
But team games are not supposed to be balanced...
If you nerf elephant or isu-152 , in 1 v 1 it will become useless.
However ISU-152 could use a little less squad wipe potential. I'd like the ISU-152 to be like the IS-2 prepatch in AI.
Its in team games where it becomes a problem..
But team games are not supposed to be balanced...
If you nerf elephant or isu-152 , in 1 v 1 it will become useless.
However ISU-152 could use a little less squad wipe potential. I'd like the ISU-152 to be like the IS-2 prepatch in AI.
26 Apr 2014, 14:43 PM
#56
Posts: 978
So the new gameplay of Germans is to only go for the two Elefant doctrines now? Cool. Totally not boring.
The coolest thing however is seeing the guys crying the loudest about the evil Tiger Ace being totally okay with a Russian super unit that can wipe squads and tanks alike.
Every decent player will park it behind the front line, wiping every unit that tries to come close with few shots. The Elefant can only fight tanks - and even then it misses half its shots. The ISU is great at fighting both.
The coolest thing however is seeing the guys crying the loudest about the evil Tiger Ace being totally okay with a Russian super unit that can wipe squads and tanks alike.
Every decent player will park it behind the front line, wiping every unit that tries to come close with few shots. The Elefant can only fight tanks - and even then it misses half its shots. The ISU is great at fighting both.
26 Apr 2014, 14:52 PM
#57
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
So the new gameplay of Germans is to only go for the two Elefant doctrines now? Cool. Totally not boring.
The coolest thing however is seeing the guys crying the loudest about the evil Tiger Ace being totally okay with a Russian super unit that can wipe squads and tanks alike.
Every decent player will park it behind the front line, wiping every unit that tries to come close with few shots. The Elefant can only fight tanks - and even then it misses half its shots. The ISU is great at fighting both.
Oh, didn't knew the soviet meta is only about 2 doctrines with ISU.
Hypocrisy and double standards much?
And speaking of double standards, you could a-move tiger ace into opponents base and forget it, it still would win you the game.
Try that with ISU and post a rep, I dare you. You don't have arty? You don't have reckons? Flanks impossible?
Mines? You know what sweepers are? You know they can go together with your other units.
Quit bitching and learn to play, soviet heavies now have a huge impact, just like german heavies, would you attack Elephant frontally with armor?
Then why do you believe you should be able to attack ISU frontally?
You have shitload of ways to deal with it, but all you want to do is a-move over it.
Well, these days are over, time to adapt, use micro, flanks and combined arms, just like soviets always did.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
26 Apr 2014, 14:55 PM
#58
Posts: 1042
Thematically the ISU is perfect, in that it can damage pretty much everything heavily. But it's an artillery piece. How about nerfing its rate of fire? It's an assault gun. Assault guns are weapons for supporting infantry. Make its reload a bit long and it might be okay. It'll force the Soviet player to keep some other AT assets on the field rather than just relying the ISU because the reload will be too long.
26 Apr 2014, 15:03 PM
#59
Posts: 390
Permanently Banned
Oh, didn't knew the soviet meta is only about 2 doctrines with ISU.
Hypocrisy and double standards much?
And speaking of double standards, you could a-move tiger ace into opponents base and forget it, it still would win you the game.
Try that with ISU and post a rep, I dare you. You don't have arty? You don't have reckons? Flanks impossible?
Mines? You know what sweepers are? You know they can go together with your other units.
Quit bitching and learn to play, soviet heavies now have a huge impact, just like german heavies, would you attack Elephant frontally with armor?
Then why do you believe you should be able to attack ISU frontally?
You have shitload of ways to deal with it, but all you want to do is a-move over it.
Well, these days are over, time to adapt, use micro, flanks and combined arms, just like soviets always did.
+1 This!!!!
Really interesting how they guys wanting the Sovjets to adapt don't want to do this on their faction. Double standards much!!!
26 Apr 2014, 15:07 PM
#60
4 Posts: 117
Katitof, first of all your attitude is a little rich. There was a good period when conspam was just about unbeatable, and Shocks were basically invincible terminator squads. The March Deployment that Soviet players looooooove to complain about was specifically directed at the fact that the game mechanics rewarded blobbing and charging into entrenched positions (== Soviet mid and late game). Have we already forgotten?
Second, you still haven't gotten past the two wrongs make a right school of thought. Is there anybody here defending the Tiger Ace? I play both factions, I thought it was BS when it first rolled out... and your point is what, exactly?
Finally, the problem is not that you can't attack an ISU from the front with armor. The problem is that you can't attack an ISU from the front with armor OR infantry, and it can 1-shot a pak from beyond the pak's range. The Elefant does not have those characteristics, and the OPness of the initial TA is completely beside the point, for God's sake it's been nerfed for longer than it was OP.
Second, you still haven't gotten past the two wrongs make a right school of thought. Is there anybody here defending the Tiger Ace? I play both factions, I thought it was BS when it first rolled out... and your point is what, exactly?
Finally, the problem is not that you can't attack an ISU from the front with armor. The problem is that you can't attack an ISU from the front with armor OR infantry, and it can 1-shot a pak from beyond the pak's range. The Elefant does not have those characteristics, and the OPness of the initial TA is completely beside the point, for God's sake it's been nerfed for longer than it was OP.
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